Can\nyou tell me about the 6 May 1944 mission you flew alongside the 449th?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n At that time, the 449th had been\nattached to the 23rd Group and of course I was in the 76th Squadron of the 23rd\nGroup. We were both stationed at Suichuan which is kind of southeast of\nHengyang, towards Formosa. Their quarters and flying and everything was on one\nside of the field and ours was on the other side of the field, so we really\ndidn\u2019t have much contact with them on the ground because we had different\nquarters that were quite a ways apart. But the mission on May 6, the 449th and\n76th fighter squadrons were flying the top cover on that mission. By the way, I\nthink if I remember correctly, we escorted bombers and I think we had B-24s and\nB-25s and then we had P-40s around the bombers. And there were fifteen of us, I\nthink there were eight P-38s and seven P-51s, but it could be the other way\naround. And we were flying top cover. The thing of it was, I think there was fifty-seven\nairplanes altogether. Or fifty-two or three. But I believe that was the most\nairplanes the 14th Air Force ever put in the air on one mission. While that 8th\nAir Force over there would have thousands of planes on one mission. <\/p>\n\n\n\n What\nhappened with that large formation of airplanes? I understand you were\nambushed?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n We were flying above the formation\nprobably about 20,000 feet. The Zeros intercepted us from above and there were\na lot of them. I never saw so many Zeros in the air at one time. There must have\nbeen a full squadron of Zeros. But the bombers protected by the P-40s as close\ncover, they went and bombed, had good results, and never had any contact with\nthe Zeros. The only contact was with the 449th and the 76th. I was flying a\nP-51B, I think there might have been some As. The 76th Squadron was the first\nsquadron to get P-51s in China. <\/p>\n\n\n\n So\nthe Zeros just jumped the top cover element then?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n We were jumped \u2013 they just hit us \u2013\nand they shot down three P-38s and just one P-51 and that was me. One of the\nP-38 pilots was a guy by the name of Lee Gregg. We both did get down and the\nChinese Communist guerrillas. The Chinese Communists had what they called two\narmies that operated behind the lines and they would harry the Japanese and if\nthe Japanese advanced they dispersed. And this outfit that picked us up was the\nNew 4th Army. They got Gregg and I together and I had heard about him that they\nhad him and he was following behind me to where they were going to take us. And\nI stopped somewhere that was safe and waited for him and then we came out\ntogether. And they took us clear up in the mountains where they had several\nthousand troops. They were very good to us. They took good care of us as best\nthey could. They gave us gifts. They gave us a really nice Japanese two-handed\nSamurai sword that had belonged to a Japanese major general that they captured\nand they told us to take this and give it to Chennault, who at that time was a\nmajor general. And Lee and I got separated on the way back to Kunming, he didn\u2019t\nget to Kunming, and I took the sword and gave it to General Chennault. Then I\nfinally got back to my squadron. Then I finally got back to my squadron. My\nsquadron at that time was in Liuzhou and we\u2019d lost all our bases at Hengyang\nand Lingling down at Suichuan and I don\u2019t know where the 449th went after that,\nbut that\u2019s the last I ever saw of them. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When\ndid you return to the United States?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n It was about time for me to go home\nsince I had been there for about a year, but what happened to me was that five\nof us joined the squadron at the same time and while I was missing in action\nthe other four got promoted to captain. Tex Hill at that time was the\ncommanding officer of the 23rd. When I got back I went to see him and he said\nhe would send me home and I told him I missed that promotion to captain and I\nwanted to go home with railroad tracks and he said well stick around for a\nwhile and we\u2019ll see what happens. So I didn\u2019t come back right away, I came back\nin September. He was a hell of a guy. He was leading that mission. In fact, on\nthat mission he got a Zero and that was the last victory he got in China. <\/p>\n\n\n\n How\nmuch interaction did you have with Tex Hill?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh, I don\u2019t know. When the AVG was\ndisbanded in July 1942, there were only five of those pilots that stayed. And\nhe was made a major and given the 75th Squadron. And a guy by the name of Ed\nRector stayed and got the 76th Squadron. But before I got there they\u2019d all\nserved their time and gone home and then Hill came back and took over from\nHolloway in about October of \u201943. Between Holloway and Hill they were the finest\ntwo officers I ever served under. Both of them were great guys. Holloway was a\nlittle more reserved and Tex was a little more outspoken, but they were both\njust great leaders. Great leaders. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When\ndid you end up in China?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I got over there in the summer of\n\u201943 about May I believe. <\/p>\n\n\n\n This\nwas your first combat tour?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, I was pretty young. I got my\nwings right after my nineteenth birthday and I was nineteen when I got over\nthere. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou go through an operational training unit before you went into combat?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, when I got my wings at Luke\nField flying AT-6s, then I went down to Florida and checked out in P-40s. And I\nhad about 20 or 30 hours in P-40s when I went over there. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou have any training on the specific tactics they used in-theater?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, they talked to us, the\nsquadron commander, they told us not to try to turn with the Zeros and hit and\nrun and things like that. So I wasn\u2019t in much aerial combat, maybe three or\nfour fights. I got one probable in one fight, but I didn\u2019t see him hit, but I\nsaw my tracers knocking pieces off his airplane, but he never did blow up or\nanything. I lost him somewhere. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou go straight into P-51s then, or were you in P-40s for a time?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Our squadron got the first P-51s.\nThe first \u201851s we got were the \u201cA\u201d model. The \u201cA\u201d model had the Allison engine\nin it. And they had been in North Africa and they were pretty well beat-up when\nwe got them. I was in the first group that went back to Karachi to pick up the\nvery first \u201cB\u201ds. There were four or five of us that went back with \u201cCasey\u201d\nVincent, who at that time was the wing commander, we went back to Karachi to\nget the first \u201cB\u201ds that came to China. While I was in Karachi I came down with\nmalaria and they put me in the hospital in Karachi. I was there for about a\nmonth before they let me fly again and I went back to Suichuan by myself from\nKarachi. <\/p>\n\n\n\n How\ndid it feel to have malaria?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, it was pretty rough. That was\nthe second time I had it, it was a relapse. The first time, I was in Suichuan\nand we did have a doctor. I wasn\u2019t feeling very well and I went in to see him.\nAnd he took my temperature and took some blood and said, \u201cWell, just go back\nand rest.\u201d And the next day I felt worse. So I went back to see him again and\nhe stuck a thermometer in my mouth and my temperature was 106. So he laid me\ndown and started cooling me off with water. He had to change my bedding one\nnight four or five times. I had the sweats and soak it and then I would be in\nthe chills, and sweat, and chills. I finally got over it. There are three\nmedicines you have to take that will cure that malaria because they treat the\nthree different stages. In China they only have two of those drugs. They had\nthe one that would kill the active bug and the one that was going to become\nactive, but that\u2019s why I had the relapse because they didn\u2019t get the third one.\nAnd when I went to India they gave me the three drugs for the cure and I\u2019ve\nnever had any problem with it since. That relapse wasn\u2019t nearly as bad as the\ninitial sickness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Were\nthere a lot of mosquitos at Suichuan?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Probably, they had nets everywhere.\nThere were mosquitoes all over China, as I remember. By the way, I don\u2019t know\nhow much I know about the 449th, but did you know who Tom Harmon was? He was in\nthe 449th. I saw him when he got out of the hospital. Just like I saw, we\ndidn\u2019t have much contact. But also, do you know who Rex Barber is? He was the\nguy that shot down Admiral Yamamoto. I think Lee Gregg was an ace too, if I\nremember, he had six victories. But I don\u2019t know where he got them \u2013 if he got\nthem in China or before he came out to China. We didn\u2019t talk too much about\nthat. I think he had his twenty-sixth birthday while we were with those Communists.\nThe commander we met became the commanding general of the Chinese army and then\nwhen he got out of the service he went into politics and in about 1980 I think\nit was he was the head man of China. He was the head of the . . . I don\u2019t know\nwhat they call it, but he was the head man. He died sometime in 1990. But in\n2005 the Chinese had a big celebration over there about the anniversary of the\nend of our struggle against the Japanese. I think it was the sixtieth\nanniversary in 2005. They invited people who had helped them against the Japanese\nfrom different countries like Russia and the United States. And they invited forty\nAmericans. And you could bring your wife or your son or your whoever. So there\nwere eighty of us and they paid all expenses. And I mean airfare from L.A. or\nSan Francisco to Beijing and back, five flights in China, and all the best\nhotels. They paid the whole tab for eighty of us! <\/p>\n\n\n\n I\nwas just in China myself on a language immersion trip.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n You\u2019re learning to speak and read?\nListen, there was a young officer with us, Chinese Communist, when Gregg and I\nwere picked up by the New Fourth Army. He became a general in the army before\nhe retired. And he\u2019s still alive. I met him over there in China. And here a\ncouple of years ago he wrote a book \u2013 while I wouldn\u2019t call it a book it was\nlike a booklet \u2013 and the name of it is \u201cSaving American Pilots.\u201d And he\u2019s got a\nstory in there about maybe ten different people they helped rescue. And anyway,\nhe wrote it in Chinese and his wife translated it into English. And so the\nbooklet has the Chinese and the English in it and it\u2019s got some pictures. And\nif you\u2019d like one I\u2019ll send it to you. There are pictures in there of this guy\nthat became the head man of China. When I went over there in 2005, I met his\ndaughter \u2013 of the guy that became the head of the government. Well she\u2019s a\nbigshot in the government and she was really good to me. When my wife and I\nwent in 2005, I also took my son and my grandson. We had to pay their airfare,\nbut they gave me a pretty good deal. So we had quite a good time over there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019ve been to the Academy a couple\ntimes. One of our commanding officers in the 76th, he\u2019s passed away now, but he\nlived right across \u2013 he lived in Monument \u2013 across the interstate from the\nAcademy. His wife still lives there. He had about nine victories. His name was\nJohn Stewart. They have his P-40 at one of the fields out there \u2013 Peterson\nField? He was CO of the 76th while I was over there. When I first got there,\nthe first CO was leaving and a guy by the name of Williams took over and then\nStewart took over from Williams. But when they moved out to Suichuan, they sent\na detachment over there from Hengyang, and John Stewart was in charge of the\ndetachment. And I went over there with him. There was about five of us. And\nthen eventually the whole squadron moved out there and when Williams went home\nthey gave the squadron to John Stewart. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nthe turnover of commanding officers cause any difficulty?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Not necessarily. The guys that took\nover had the experience. The guy who was in charge when I got there, he wasn\u2019t\nthere very long, he was a major. I can\u2019t think of his name right away, but when\nWilliams took over, I think he had been a captain for about a week when he got\nthe squadron. He was a great squadron commander. What happened was the guys who\nhad been over there, the guys who had the experience flying, all went home and\nguys like me \u2013 I was in the Class of 43B \u2013 we didn\u2019t have much experience. So\nthey started bringing lieutenant colonels from the States over to take over and\nthey didn\u2019t have much experience in combat. That was about the time I left.\nThey lost a couple of those guys. I know one crashed somehow, just returning or\nsomething. In the two months Lee Gregg and I were gone we missed all that\naction when the Japanese started that offensive. They were going to go all the\nway to Hong Kong, then turn west and try to take Kunming. But they were stopped\nbefore they got passed Liuzhou. But we did lose Guilin and Hengyang and\nLingling and Suichuan. The guys were flying two or three missions a day. It\u2019s\nawfully hard to stop troops with airplanes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Earlier\nyou talked about flying to Karachi to pick up new P-51Bs. How did the \u201cB\u201d model\ncompare with the \u201cA\u201d model?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n It had the Merlin engine in it. You\nknow, the one that the British designed. It was built by Rolls Royce and\nlicense-built by Packard. It did a lot for that P-51 \u2013 a lot more power, higher\naltitude \u2013 it really made the P-51.<\/p>\n\n\n\n What\nkind of edge did that give you in air combat in China?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n It didn\u2019t give us any edge in\nmaneuvering. There\u2019s no way in hell it could outmaneuver a Zero. But it gave us\nmore climbing speed and more speed per se, you know, you could outrun those\nZeros. And they couldn\u2019t catch you, as far as I\u2019m concerned, if you knew they\nwere on your tail. But they were good airplanes. Actually, with the \u201cB\u201ds, they\ntook two of the guns out. It only had four .50s. All the rest of them had six.\nIt was only that one model, the \u201cB\u201d model, the only one with four guns [sic]. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Was\nthat a problem in combat?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, it was a little less firepower.\nI don\u2019t know why they took them out, something about they did something to the\nwing, I guess they couldn\u2019t get another gun in there. Then in the models after\nthat, they did something so they could put those two guns in, but I don\u2019t\nreally know the details. But even with just four .50s \u2013 that\u2019s one big\nadvantage we had over the Zero, was our firepower. When you opened up with\nthose .50s, they\u2019d just roar. When the Japanese fired, their guns would go\ntat-tat-tat-tat. They didn\u2019t fire at near the speed that our guns did. And of\ncourse we were much more protected than the Zero. They did everything to make\nthat thing light. And they had no protection for the pilot. The big thing they\ndidn\u2019t have \u2013 and I think they would have been much better off \u2013 was self-sealing\nfuel tanks like we did. Because once you hit the fuel tanks with incendiaries\nand they ruptured, well the whole plane just blew up. Whereas our planes didn\u2019t\nblow up if you got hit. If you lost your coolant then the engine would seize,\nbut very seldom would they just explode. Because of those self-sealing tanks\nand the armor we had, particularly behind us. They couldn\u2019t penetrate the\nprotection we had behind the pilot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How\ndid it hold up in ground attack?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n They were good at it. They were\njust as good as any other airplane. You had a lot of speed. We got a lot of\ntrains \u2013 we\u2019d knock trains out \u2013 and shipping. You know there aren\u2019t many roads\nin China at that time. They did have a railroad from Beijing all the way to\nHong Kong. But mostly they used rivers. And we would shoot up the boats on the\nrivers. Troops, per se, are not easy. They could hit a ditch or get out of the\nway or something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\nheard the P-51 was more vulnerable to ground fire because of the coolant.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n That certainly was, you know all the\ninline engines would have that problem. If you got a hole in the radiator, you\ncould only go so far. By the way, do you know about the raid on Formosa. Tex\nHill led that one. He was super well liked. He had a good memory. I said, \u201cTex,\nyou\u2019ve got to write a book.\u201d Then when I found out about the book, last time I\nsaw him, I said, \u201cWell Tex, I\u2019m glad you finally wrote a book!\u201d He looked at me\nand he said, \u201cI didn\u2019t write it.\u201d He said, \u201cMy grandson wrote it!\u201d His grandson\nis, I think, in the service.<\/p>\n\n\n\n For that\n6 May mission to Hankou, did you fly from Suichuan, or did you stage through\nanother base?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n We flew from Suichuan \u2013 the 449th\nand the 76th. Where the P-40s came from \u2013 I think they probably came out of\nGuilin or Hengyang. I don\u2019t know where the bombers came from. We all\nrendezvoused somewhere and got together. That\u2019s the way we did those missions.\nAll of the fields I flew out of were fighter fields; they didn\u2019t have the \u201824s\nor \u201825s at those fields.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How\nmuch higher were you above the bomber formation?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s a good question. I would\njust be guessing; I would imagine they were around fifteen thousand. But I\u2019m\nnot sure. I do know we could look down on them and the P-40s were packed in\npretty tight \u2013 had them pretty well surrounded, you know? I don\u2019t know how many\nP-40s there were, but it looked like there was quite a few of them. But just\nlike I said, I don\u2019t know, in total there were fifty-one or fifty planes. You\nsubtract the fifteen P-38s and P-51s, you\u2019d have thirty-five planes. I don\u2019t\nknow how many of each there was. But for the 14th Air Force it was a big raid.\nAnd that was a big Japanese base, Hankou.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Had\nyou ever been there before?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, I went up there once before.\nThe guy I was flying with, he got over the river and went into a spiral and pulled\nup over the river and tried to find the formation and we couldn\u2019t find it, so\nwe had to go back to the base. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When\nthe Japanese fighters jumped you from above, which direction did they attack\nfrom?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n They had the jump on us. Initially\nI don\u2019t know, but they had good speed and they were coming from all over. I saw\none of them in front of me. I don\u2019t think he knew I was there. I started after\nhim, but I was just getting close enough to fire when I got clobbered from\nbehind. So what I did was I went to dive away, I got shot up pretty bad, and\ngot away from that fight and then my plane actually quit and I bailed out. <\/p>\n\n\n\n How\nlong after you bailed out did the Chinese find you?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I landed in a rice paddy in my\nparachute and they were working there. They were wary of me. They wouldn\u2019t come\nclose to me. You carried a flag \u2013 I carried it in my back pocket \u2013 and I held\nit up and I kept saying \u201cMeiguo, meiguo!\u201d Which is \u201cAmerica, America!\u201d They\nwere really wary of me, but one of them pointed up toward a couple of buildings\nup ahead and I walked up toward that and a Chinese guy came right to me. He\nwasn\u2019t afraid of me. He came right to me. And we carried a pointie-talkie and I\npulled that pointie-talkie out and I asked him to take me to the guerrillas.\nThat\u2019s the other thing about China. Only about ten percent of the population\nthere was literate! But this guy was literate and later that day he got me with\na few of the guerrillas and they led me out for the next couple of months. I\nhad a few encounters with the Japanese. Anyway, I\u2019ll send you that little book.\nBut I\u2019m going to tell you right now, this guy didn\u2019t write it until a couple\nyears ago. Now this maybe sixty years after it happened and there\u2019s a lot of\nmistakes in it and errors in translation. I\u2019ve gone through a lot of books with\ncontacts of people in there, but I\u2019ve been unable to find a lot of them. A lot\nof them were B-29 crews and I haven\u2019t found any of the people in any of their\nrecords. But I\u2019ve tried. I just haven\u2019t had much luck. Anyway, I\u2019m just telling\nyou now. He got me mixed up with another guy that was rescued, by the name of\nArmit Lewis. He got my date wrong. Besides that, the interesting thing about it\nis he wrote it in Chinese and then his wife translated it and so you have the\nEnglish version and the Chinese version. Since you study Chinese, that ought to\nbe interesting. One of the guys he rescued became a four-star general. He was\nthe Class of 1936 at West Point. They had his name misspelled. And I never\ncould find anything out about him. But I was reading another book and his name\nwas in there correctly spelled and when I got the right spelling, my computer\npicked him up. He retired as a four-star general. At the time that he was shot\ndown they got him in the book as a captain. And I think to myself, my gosh, a\nguy who was Class of 1936 at West Point and he\u2019s over there in China flying\nP-51s \u2013 he ought to be more than a captain. And actually he was. He was a\ncolonel. I found out he was retired, but his family was out in Shreveport,\nLouisiana. I got a lot of information about him. He was buried there and his\nwife and two children are still alive. So I sent each of them a copy of the\nbook. There was that diary you\u2019ve got of Gregg\u2019s, I had started a diary and\nwhen we got together, he was writing a lot more, I said, \u201cI\u2019m going to get a\ncopy of your diary and I\u2019m going to quit.\u201d He says, \u201cOk.\u201d But then we got\nseparated and I never heard from him again. When I got out of the service, I\nmoved to California. I knew his family was in the San Marino area. So I went\ndown there looking for him and I found his mother. I talked to his mother and\nshe told me that Gregg had married and they had bought a boat and all he does\nis sail the South Seas. But she had his diary. So I got a copy of it. It\u2019s\nprobably the same thing you have.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou two have a lot of time to sit and talk on your way back from Japanese\nlines?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh yeah. When we first got\ntogether, why we talked all night! He had kind of a tough time. When he bailed\nout, he was in a dive and the canopy blew off and he unstrapped from his seat\nbelts and he was just sucked out of the airplane. I think something hit his\nhead. He didn\u2019t know how high he was or how fast he was going because when he\nhit his head he couldn\u2019t see. And then he pulled that ripcord and he was going\ntoo fast. It really jerked the heck out of him and apparently knocked him out.\nAnd then when he hit the ground I think he was semi-conscious \u2013 I don\u2019t\nremember everything \u2013 and there was Japanese and Chinese right there. They were\nkind of fighting over him. The Chinese ran the Japanese off and got him out of\nthere. He recovered, I guess, and when we finally got together, why, I had been\njumped by the enemy one time. I had forty or fifty soldiers with me,\nCommunists, and we were in a dangerous area traveling at night. And it was\nreally dark, it was a moonless night with an overcast. I had hurt my leg when I\nbailed out. I hit the horizontal stabilizer and I couldn\u2019t walk. They carried\nme for about a week in a stretcher and we walked along this trail and the\nChinese took turns carrying me. It took four guys to carry me in that\nstretcher. They had just laid me down. I hit the ground and I heard that\ntat-tat-tat-tat-tat. I looked over to my left and I could see the muzzle flash\nof the machine gun. And I got off of that stretcher and got behind a mound or\nsomething. I had a young kid that was kind of taking care of me. They had a\nlittle battle there. And the next morning we all got back together and took off\nagain.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So\nyou stayed behind that mound all night?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well yeah, I got back there in a\nditch. Like I said, I wasn\u2019t able to walk, but my legs worked a little better\nthen! We just kind of hid until the firing was over. And we got kind of\nscattered, but that young boy, he stayed right with me. Then when it got lighter\nand we all got back together, I don\u2019t think we lost anybody. But that was \u2013 I\ndon\u2019t think a full company, but quite a few guys. The way those Communists\noperated, I don\u2019t know if they still do, but they\u2019d have party members that\nstayed right with the troops. And there were two guys. They wore a uniform like\nan officer\u2019s uniform, but with no rank on it. Right down to the company level,\nthey had a communist right there in that company. So if the people decided to\ndo a coup or whatever, they would know about it right now. So that\u2019s why you\nnever hear about a communist party being taken over. But that\u2019s the way it was\nthen. The guy\u2019s name there was Shui, which means water, in Chinese, and the\nother guy was a professor \u2013 a professor at the University of Peking, but he was\nin that great [long] march. He could speak a little English. So I could talk to\nhim a little bit. China is changing. They are probably one of the few communist\nnations, but they lean toward capitalism. Capitalism is not a form of government,\nit\u2019s a form of your economy. In China, every one of these Chinese citizens,\nthey want to be an entrepreneur. They\u2019re selling stuff in the street and\neverywhere you go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019m\nlooking at the information I have for the 6 May missing and it says there were fourteen\nB-25s, thirteen P-40s, sixteen P-51s, and eleven P-38s \u2013 a total of fifty-four\naircraft.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I don\u2019t think those numbers are\nright. There were fifteen of us in the top cover. There were fifteen P-38s and\nP-51s \u2013 I\u2019m talking about total now. There were seven or eight of either \u2013 I\u2019m\nnot sure, but I think there were eight P-38s and seven P-51s. But there were\nfifteen of us flying top cover and all the rest of them were bombers and P-40s.\nI don\u2019t know how many of them there were. I do know the number fifty\naltogether. But I know for sure the combination of \u201838s and \u201851s was fifteen.\nAnd I know there were three \u201838s lost. Two of those P-38s pilots I haven\u2019t been\nable to figure out whatever happened to them. <\/p>\n\n\n\n I went back to China twice. Jeff\n[Greene] was giving tours over there in 2000 or 2001. He\u2019s the one that brought\nus over on that anniversary deal. What he did \u2013 he had a lot of us people who\nwere over there during the war on stage about their experience. I\u2019m talking\nabout twenty-five different guys. Pretty famous people: Dick Rossi and Tex Hill\nand one of the guys that was on the Doolittle Raid \u2013 tell their stories. And he\ntook all their stories over to China and had them translated into Chinese and\nthey came out with a book called, \u201cWhen Tigers Roared.\u201d And it\u2019s all in\nChinese. I got a book. He had us send pictures to him. And it\u2019s really quite a\nbook. And he was going to have it printed in English, but it\u2019s never come out\nin English. So I\u2019ve got the book but I can\u2019t read it! It\u2019s all in Chinese! I\ndon\u2019t know why it\u2019s so difficult to print it in English, because all of our\nstories were originally written in English! Dick Cole, he was Jimmy Doolittle\u2019s\ncopilot. He was on that trip. And Dick Rossi was on that trip. He was the only\nAVG guy on that trip. Of course he died a few months ago. I went to his funeral\nin Florida. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Do\nyou have any pictures with your P-51?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I sent them to Steve Bonner. He was\non that trip. In fact, we went to China together and came home together. He was\nin the 76th. I sent him the few photos that I had. But I made copies of them,\nso I can send you a picture of that. It\u2019s the same one you\u2019ll see in that book.\nThe 23rd Fighter Group and all its squadrons are down at Moody Field and they\nfly A-10s. They have a reunion there for the young guys and the old guys. It\u2019ll\nbe in November this year. The first week of November. I went last year. I\u2019m not\nsure if I can make it this year. But I hope I can.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Since\nSuichuan was the farthest east airbase in China at the time you were there,\nwhat was the supply situation like?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n It wasn\u2019t too good. They didn\u2019t\nhave the mess halls ready, so we had C rations. It was the best food I had in\nChina. When the Americans got to China, part of the contract was that the\nChinese built quarters and house us and feed us. So the mess halls weren\u2019t open\nat Suichuan until later, they finally got the mess halls open. As far as\nsupplies are concerned, we did pretty good, but we kind of lived off the land.\nWe had a line sergeant that was probably the best crew chief, line sergeant in\nall of World War II. He was in our squadron. His name was Gerhard Neuman,\n\u201cHerman the German.\u201d There\u2019s a plaque about him in the engineering department\nat the Academy there. He was born in Germany. He was educated in Germany. And\nhe came over to China. He had an opportunity to get a job there. And the job\nhappened to be in Hong Kong, which was a British possession. When Germany and\nEngland declared war, they told him he had to get out of Hong Kong. He didn\u2019t\nknow what to do and somebody told him there was an American in the interior of\nChina looking for mechanics. And that was Chennault. This was before the AVG.\nSo he got a job with Chennault, because Chennault was trying to help the\nChinese Air Force. And then he stayed and they made him a sergeant and put him\nin our squadron. After the war he came over here and went to work for GE and he\nbecame an executive for jet engines at General Electric. He was remarkable. He\ncould do almost anything. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Were\nthere any days out at Suichuan where you couldn\u2019t fly missions because of fuel\nshortages?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n We were always short of fuel. They\nwere still working on the field when we moved in. They had a big roller the\nChinese used to roll down those runways. They had two or three hundred people\npulling that. But things were pretty good at Suichuan.<\/p>\n\n\n\n While\nyou were out there, did you fly any river sweeps?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh yeah. All the river traffic in\nChina was probably Japanese. We would go after boats and trains. One thing you\nhad to be careful with \u2013 when we first got over there, they took some guys up\non the river, just targets of opportunity and so on, and they ran into a\nJapanese convoy. And they had run out of ammo. So this was in the morning. And\nwhen they got back to Hengyang, they told the CO there was a convoy. And when\nthey went back to shoot up the convoy, the Japanese were thinking the same\nthing and there was a swarm of Zeros above the convoy. So you had to be\ncareful. The same thing happened one time when we shot up a train. They next\nday they\u2019d send something out to get the train off the tracks and so we\u2019d shoot\nthat up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How are you?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell, for ninety-two, I\u2019m doing pretty good, I guess. I can\u2019t complain. If I\nhad a new hip, I\u2019d be a hundred percent, but I\u2019ve got a bad hip. When you\u2019re\nninety-two, they\u2019re reluctant to operate on you. But I think it would be better\nto have it done. If I survive, fine, but if I don\u2019t, I\u2019m in Heaven, so I don\u2019t\ncare. I\u2019ve got a win-win situation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How are you?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nGood, thank you. I was talking to Jeff Greene; I\u2019m excited about your book!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nThere was a young captain at the base when we first moved out here. He\ninterviewed Glen and wrote his master\u2019s thesis on Glen\u2019s story. He gave Glen a\ncopy of it. I don\u2019t know where I can find it. I\u2019ll look for it. A lot of what\nyou covered in the 449th book is what Henry talks about: how he entered the air\nforce, how he was shot down, and how the Chinese rescued him. It was just, you\nknow, the standard documentary story.<\/p>\n\n\n\n What effect did Glen\u2019s experience\nduring the war have on his life after the war?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell, he was very reluctant to even talk about it, for, I\u2019d say almost twenty\nyears. When we started going to the reunions \u2013 you know, when Tex Hill formed\nthat 23rd group, just the 23rd started meeting, then other guys were talking\nand, \u201cHey Glen, did you remember this?\u201d and \u201cHey Glen, how about this?\u201d That\u2019s\nwhen he seemed to be open to talk about his experiences. But before that, dad\nnever really talked about his experiences at all, did he?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nNo. No, he didn\u2019t. I suspect there was probably something back there behind the\nwindshield that we didn\u2019t know what was going on, or under the hood, you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nBut as he got older, he began to talk about his experiences. He never talked about\nany of the really bad things that he probably had to go through, but he would\ntalk about the good things. The only thing that he would really talk about was\nhow his leg really hurt him when he hit that tail. I figured that as he got\nolder he mellowed and probably reflected more that he was reluctant to do when\nhe came home. He just wanted to wipe it out of his mind, probably. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nYeah, I think, Daniel, you\u2019re very much schooled in the Chinese and how they\nthink about things. A big thing with the Chinese is \u201cface,\u201d saving face. And I\nsuspect when my dad \u2013 it was kind of an embarrassing thing, being shot down,\nyou know? That part of it probably weighed on him. And then to have to be\ncarried and all that. Because dad was always the type of person to help other\npeople. He was very good at athletics. He was a football quarterback, he played\nbasketball, and he ran track, and he could shoot pool, and he could play golf.\nI don\u2019t know how many holes-in-ones he had during his lifetime\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nSix.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nSix holes-in-one. He could play ping pong. He was very gifted in that area. And\nthen all of the sudden he\u2019s kind of vulnerable. He was coming home one day from\nschool. He had his books and his civilian clothes on and some of the kids that\nwere running track, they were yelling at him, \u201cHey Beneda, you can\u2019t run! Hey\nBeneda, why don\u2019t you go out for track!\u201d They were going to run a 440 and so my\ndad went over there in his street clothes and lined up with everybody and he\ncame in first place. He beat everybody. And the coach says, \u201cOk, Beneda, you\u2019re\non the track team.\u201d Dad would never spike the football like they do today, or\ndo anything like that. His yes was always yes and his no was always no. He was\na very honorable person. He was a good example of a dad. He always paid his\nbills on time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nIf he didn\u2019t have the money, he wouldn\u2019t buy it! No such thing as credit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nAnd if he told somebody he was going to do something, he\u2019d do it. But I think\none of the real turning points in my dad\u2019s life \u2013 and my mom saw it \u2013 is when\nwe went back to that village and they took him out to see his plane and they\ncarried him out there. And then the one guy came up and gave my dad a hug.\nThere was a good picture of that. I could just see in his face \u2013mom and I talked\nabout it \u2013 when he was looking out there at his plane and everything. His mind\nwas just like it was doing a flashback to the war and maybe to what had\nhappened or whatever. He always said that the heroes were the farmers and the\ncivilian people and the soldiers that carried him. They saved his life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nI can tell you one thing; when we first got married, he said, \u201cI eat most\nanything, but please don\u2019t ever serve me rice.\u201d And I didn\u2019t. I mean, I didn\u2019t\nlaugh, just \u201cok.\u201d <\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nHe probably ate a lot of rice when he was\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell they were so poor, that\u2019s all they had to feed him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n How long after the war did you get\nmarried?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWe married in \u201946.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did you know him prior to the war?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYes. Well, I know who he was and he knew who I was. And I think a couple of\ntimes that we even double-dated somebody else. He had a different girlfriend. I\nhad a different boyfriend. But I think it was after the war, after he came\nhome, then we saw each other \u2013 they had kind of a USO place in McCook. All the\nbig bands would come through there and they\u2019d stop in McCook overnight and play\nin this big auditorium. My girlfriends, some of them were married and some of\nthem were single, and we\u2019d go down there and we\u2019d be the USO-type girls. They\nhad a big airbase in McCook, a B-29 base. So there were always a lot of GIs to\ndance with and Glen was there. And I was asking the girls, \u201cDo you know that\u2019s\nGlen Beneda? Should I go up and say hi to him, or should I be coy?\u201d And I went\nwith my girlfriends into the restroom and when I came out, there was Glen\nstanding there waiting for me. And that was it. We got married \u2013 that was\nprobably in November and we got married the next March.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Had the war grown him up much?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYeah, I think so. All of us. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nDoes Dan know the story about Uncle Ralph?<\/p>\n\n\n\n No.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYou know he and my brother went into the service together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I didn\u2019t know that.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nOh you didn\u2019t? They had both enlisted. My brother was older. My brother was\ntwenty-three or twenty-four and Glen was eighteen. But they had to go to Omaha\nto sign the papers and take their physical. My brother had a car and I don\u2019t\nknow how \u2013 and Glen said he didn\u2019t remember either \u2013 how he got ahold of my\nbrother Ralph, and said could he ride to Omaha with him. And so he did. And\nthen they were called to go to Santa Anna for basic training together. But my\nbrother had had so many broken bones in his body that he got delayed. He\ngraduated 43C or D and Glen was 43B in February. And then my brother got\nassigned to B-24s and he was killed in the Ploesti oil raid in Romania. He was\nkind of our connection, really. We didn\u2019t meet each other again. So that\u2019s kind\nof the saga of the Beneda and Egle.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nAnd so my dad knew my uncle very well and then when he came back to McCook\nafter World War II then he saw Uncle Ralph\u2019s sister there, I\u2019m sure he knew\nsomething about my mom already. It\u2019s interested that they ended up falling in\nlove and getting married.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nGlen was shot down in May \u201944 and my brother was killed in August \u201943. He\nhadn\u2019t been overseas only about three or four months. He went to England and\nthen they took him right from England to Libya. And then they flew out of a\nbase in Libya.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\u2019s hard to imagine, this day and\nage, the kind of loss that every family went through during the war.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nAbsolutely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nYou know, back during that time too, most of the people, they lived in the\nrural areas and they were farmers and stuff and, you know, there were people that\nlived in cities too, but I think that one of the big differences today, and I\nsaw it on the fire department, is that generation that my dad grew up with, and\neven, to a certain extent, my brother and I, they knew how to work on tractors\nand they knew how to work on cars and change oil and do brake jobs and all that\nstuff. Young guys today, I don\u2019t think they\u2019re very mechanically inclined. Some\nof them are. You had to know how to do those things to bring in the harvest and\nput food on your table. It\u2019s kind of different today. Everybody has and iPad\nnow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Glen went back to China twice,\ncorrect?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nIt was 2001, 2005\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\n2008 and 2010.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nand 2010 yeah. Four times. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Do you think that brought about\nhealing or perspective?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell the first time, I think he was kind of \u2013 I think Jeff Greene got a bunch\nof them together \u2013 it was celebrating the sixtieth anniversary or something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nThat was before the sixtieth one. The sixtieth was in 2005. Dad went in 2001\nand I went with him. And it was just more or less a tour trip and they took you\ninto the silk shops and the furniture places and tried to sell you stuff. Dad\nwasn\u2019t really happy about that because it was so commercialized. You know, it\nwas kind of like, \u201cWe\u2019re going to get in your pocketbook.\u201d But in 2005, when\nthose sixty veterans went, it was completely different because now he\u2019s with a\nlot of the guys that were in the war. That was the year he met Madame Li Xiaolin.\nThat really changed his life. I don\u2019t know if you know the story about that.\nMom can tell you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nThey kept after Glen to come to China in 2005 and he said, \u201cNo, I\u2019ve been there\ntwice. I don\u2019t want to go anymore.\u201d We kept getting these calls from China. Our\nanswering machine was full of calls from China. And finally, he gets this one\ncall, and it says, \u201cYou must come. We have found your airplane.\u201d And Glen said,\n\u201cMy airplane was never lost. I know where it was!\u201d So we went on that trip. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nNot only that, he says, \u201cI know where it was!\u201d Then he would say, \u201cIt\u2019s just a\npiece of junk!\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\n\u201cBecause I crashed it.\u201d He says, \u201cI don\u2019t need to see it!\u201d Then when we met\nMadame Li, she invited us down to her hotel room, and she told Glen, \u201cI have\narranged for you to go to Jianli to see the people and they\u2019re excavating your\nairplane out of the lake.\u201d And Glen said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to leave the rest of\nthe people. I want to stay with my people.\u201d And she just stuck her nose\nmore-or-less right in his and said, \u201cGlen, you will<\/em> go!\u201d So we went! And that was an experience too. We left in an\nSUV and we had a police escort. And we left from Changsha and went all the way\nto the Yangzi. We get to the Yangzi and all these cars and buggies and whatever\nwere waiting to get on the ferry. And the ferry was there and the police car\nand our car drove right onto the ferry, right in front of all these other\npeople. And the ferry took off.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nThey wouldn\u2019t let anybody else on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nAnd so we went up to the town and our SUV broke down \u2013 the air conditioning\nbroke down. It was hotter than hades, so they took us to some little restaurant\nthat was closed and they weren\u2019t going to feed us and our guide \u2013 or whoever he\nwas \u2013 that was with us, he had a big fuss with the owner and finally why, they\nfed us. I mean, this was out in the middle of the boonies. There was nothing\naround except this restaurant. And it wasn\u2019t much of a restaurant. And when we\ngot ready to leave, there was a brand new SUV sitting out there. Where did it\ncome from? We don\u2019t know!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nOne of the things that happened, we were sitting there, and this guy comes out\nwith this big platter with some food on it, you know? And it wasn\u2019t what you\nwould think is on there. He comes around the corner and it was a barbequed cat!\nAnd the people that were with us, they just had a fit. They grabbed that guy\nand spun him around and marched him back in the kitchen. You could see the\nwhiskers on the cat and everything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell we saw the tail!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nSo anyways, they told him, \u201cWell you\u2019re not going to serve them that!\u201d So he\nhad to make something else.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell I think he did it on purpose because he and that guy got into a big fight\nand demanded some food and that owner was in your face.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nWhen you have a police escort, those guys, police guys, that group we were\nwith, they were almost like gestapo, you know? Forced the guy to open his\nrestaurant and everything. Anyway, that was kind of funny. But then we left\nthere in the new SUV and we\u2019re driving and we started getting closer and closer\nto the village, but there wasn\u2019t really any roads.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nOh no, it was terrible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nThere was just dirt in between the rice paddies. Like people would drive their\nwater buffalos and stuff between the rice paddies and that\u2019s where we\u2019re\ndriving this SUV.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nI don\u2019t think we even went five miles an hour!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nNo, we were probably going three miles an hour.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nBumpity bump!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nWe were going for quite a long time. And all of a sudden I start hearing these\ndrums: bum bum! Kind of like cymbals, or whatever. And they start getting\nlouder and louder. And the closer we got, all of the sudden, I don\u2019t know where\nall these people came from, but they came out of the woodwork. There were people\nmarching behind the car and banging on drums and cymbals. I don\u2019t know if you\nsaw the documentary, but part of that was in there and it was really something.\nThen when dad got out, they had all these media people and paparazzi and some\ntables set up and they gave him flowers and everything. That was really a point\nin my dad\u2019s life \u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nThat\u2019s when you could look at his face and he was just overwhelmed. And you\nknow a lot of that overwhelming feeling that he had was remembering, I\u2019m sure.\nBecause I can look as some of the pictures we took and his face is so strained.\nAnd then it\u2019s also bewildered. It\u2019s not a happiness-type thing, you know. No,\nit wasn\u2019t that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nI think, Daniel, you\u2019ve talked to a lot of servicemen and when you have\nsomething traumatic happen in your life, you kind of just put that out of your\nlife. You just go on. You kind of bury it. But then all of the sudden this\nthing is coming back fresh again.<\/p>\n\n\n\n What did it mean for you two? You\nknew this happened, but then you were standing there where it happened.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell, it was kind of overwhelming for me too, to see all of it and to be among\nthe people that rescued the love of your life. It was indescribable. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nFor me, it just put a face on everything that dad had been saying and all of\nthe sudden, I\u2019m right there where that place is that he had talked about and\nwith the people. And there was really just the sense, with my mom and with my\ndad and my son was with me \u2013 it was almost just an outpouring of love. You were\nso overwhelmed and so grateful and so thankful for all of the sudden this\nincident that dad\u2019s talked about, all of the sudden now it\u2019s come to life \u2013\nit\u2019s real. And you\u2019re seeing the people face-to-face and you\u2019re seeing how much\nthey come out to honor my father. A big part of it is about my dad, but it\u2019s\nalso about the Flying Tigers and the guys that served there. And I think also\ntoo part of it, I\u2019m sure they were all given the day off, they were all told\nthey probably had to be out there too. But it was kind of a seminal point and\nreally something that was very powerful and very meaningful. I would have never\nthought in my lifetime that I would ever be back there where my dad\u2019s plane was\nor where he was rescued and all of the sudden it\u2019s kind of like, \u201cIs this for\nreal? Or is this a dream?\u201d It was something that happened that I had heard\nabout, but now all of the sudden it had come alive and it was really quite a\nmoment in my life to see that. <\/p>\n\n\n\n It must have been quite an\nexperience for him to eventually have some of his ashes placed there.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nThey\u2019re at Madame Li\u2019s father\u2019s library. If you ever have a chance to go see\nit, it\u2019s unbelievable what she did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nWhat she did, is she went to all the different presidential libraries in the\nUnited States. She went to Carter and she went to Nixon, George Bush, and she\ntook notes. And this lady is really a sharp gal. The Nixon Library has the\nbirthplace of Richard Nixon there, the house that he was born in, and so the\nhouse that her dad lived in, and I don\u2019t know if he was born there or not\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYeah, he was born in that house.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\n\u2026 is at the museum there. The landscaping and everything is just really\nbeautiful. It\u2019s kind of out in a remote area, in a rural area. And it has a\nreflection pool, kind of like the Lincoln Memorial. And she built a three-story\nhotel there that\u2019s probably a four-and-a-half or five-star hotel. Last time we\nwere there on September the third for the seventieth anniversary, mom and I\nstayed there and she had a presidential suite that she let us stay in and it\nwas probably two thousand square feet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nAt least.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nIf you counted the patios. It had three different patios and it was all glass.\nIt was really beautiful. She treats my mom and I and our family just like\nfamily.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell, we are family.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nYeah. It\u2019s just something I never would have thought would happen in our life.\nIt seems like a fairy tale when we go there. They just treat us so nice, you\nknow? They meet us at the airport, and\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWhen we went to Nebraska after you saw us in Denver, and then we went on to\nNebraska and we stopped by my family cemetery in my little hometown where my\ngrandfather was the minister. That\u2019s where Glen\u2019s ashes are, with my mom, my\ndad, and my brother. And I just mentioned to her, I said, \u201cI have a small\ncontainer of Glen\u2019s ashes. I\u2019d like to have you take them back to Hubei\nProvince and spread them over where the farmers rescued him.\u201d And she said, \u201cOh,\nthat would be nice.\u201d So then the next thing I know Sonia, Doctor Sonia Li told\nus, she said, \u201cYou know what you said to Madame Li? Well, she hired an\narchitect and she\u2019s building a memorial to Glen.\u201d I said, \u201cOh no!\u201d We just\ncan\u2019t believe the whole thing. It\u2019s just unbelievable. She even has a P-40 in\nglass at that memorial. She\u2019s got the map \u2013 I took his flight maps and he drew\non it where he bailed out and where he walked. We had it hanging in the garage.\nAnd she saw it in our garage and she said, \u201cI want that.\u201d So it\u2019s hanging in\nher father\u2019s library.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nAnd what she did, Daniel, is she hired this architect and he made these\nthirty-five steps that are pretty wide. I\u2019d say they\u2019re probably \u2013 oh, I don\u2019t\nknow \u2013 thirty-five-feet wide. And they go up. They start at the bottom and they\ngo up thirty-five steps and she made it to look like a runway. And so when you\nclimb up these steps, then you get to the top and that\u2019s where dad\u2019s ashes are.\nAnd then you walk to the back, there\u2019s two walls\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nIt\u2019s got walls that look like marble, but they look like clouds.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nThere are two of them at ninety-degree angles. In the corner, at the foot of\nthat, she put a piece of glass with a P-40 sitting in there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell then she\u2019s got a copy of that flight map. And he engraved it into that\nmarble wall.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nOne side is done in English and one side is in Chinese. It tells the story. So\nit\u2019s very nicely done and there\u2019s pine trees right there. I think it\u2019s one of\nthe nicest places in the whole library. She put that place for dad, you know? <\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nIt\u2019s unbelievable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nSo when you walk up there in that area, it\u2019s just so secluded and it\u2019s almost\nlike you\u2019re kind of in a pine forest. It\u2019s really pretty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I know when Glen was in China\nduring World War II, it was chaos, it was terrible. Did he ever realize how\nmuch what he did meant to the Chinese people before going back in 2005?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nI think so. Because he used to talk about how the civil war was going on all\nthe time, but they seemed to be able to negotiate between the Communists and\nthe Nationalists to rescue him. And he said they\u2019d come to these no-man\u2019s lands\nareas and he said there\u2019d be the people they were negotiating with, they\u2019d give\nthem big baskets of money to take him and Gregg across that no-man\u2019s land to\nthe other side. Maybe to the Nationalist side. And he said, \u201cWe wondered if\nwe\u2019d ever get out of there alive.\u201d Because he said they were bandits.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nI don\u2019t think dad ever really thought in his wildest imagination, the respect\nand the gratitude that the Chinese people would have for the Flying Tigers. I\ndon\u2019t think he ever really clearly understood that until he went to China.\nBecause he was just like the rest of the guys that served in the war. They won.\nThey did their job and they came home. And he went on and raised a family and\nhe worked and stuff, but never really gave it too much of a thought about the\nChinese side of it. Because, you know, if it wasn\u2019t for the AVG and some of the\nthings they did by stopping the Japanese, they would have lost their country.\nThey would be speaking Japanese. And they told dad that to his face.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nA lot of young college kids would come up to Glen and thank him and he\u2019d say,\n\u201cI didn\u2019t do anything special!\u201d And one young teenager\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nCollege kid.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYeah, he just turned to Glen and got right in his face and he said, \u201cSir, if it\nweren\u2019t for you, I would be speaking Japanese.\u201d And Glen says, \u201cWell young man,\nwe were told that we were trained to fly planes, fighters, and we were serving\nour country and we were told to go to China and we went to China.\u201d And he said,\n\u201cWe did what we were supposed to do.\u201d And he said, \u201cIf we helped you people,\nthat\u2019s wonderful, but\u201d he said, \u201cyour people helped me too.\u201d A lot of the young\npeople, he had good rapport with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It turns out that Glen really paved\nthe way for the New 4th Army to help other pilots get out safely. Another pilot\nmentioned it in his report.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell they knew, Chennault was glad to get these reports from him, because, just\nlike he told his mother, he\u2019d never had a pilot shot down that far in enemy\nterritory and he had no idea that they\u2019d be treated like they were. He actually\ngave Glen\u2019s mom no hope because he hadn\u2019t lost anybody like that before that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nDaniel, what was that guy\u2019s name?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYeah, was he from Colorado Springs, by any chance? I can\u2019t think of that guy\u2019s\nname in Colorado Springs, but he was shot down too. Dad talked to him on the\nphone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Armit Lewis.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYes! Armit Lewis. We went to see him and he had saved every piece of\nmemorabilia from there. He\u2019s not like Glen. Glen lost all his stuff. But Armit\nhad everything. He called Glen right after Nixon opened up things with China.\nHe said, \u201cGlen, I want to go back to China. Do you want to go with me?\u201d And\nGlen said, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t think I want to go back.\u201d But Armit really wanted to\ngo. But he also, I think he told us at that time, I can\u2019t remember what the\ndates were, but he said he got a letter from the State Department and it said\nit\u2019s too early to go into China. We will not give him a visa, or whatever you\nneeded to go. And why, I don\u2019t know. But he got a letter from the State\nDepartment telling him not to go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nDid Armit ever go back, mom?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nNo.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nDid you guys meet and talk with him?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nGlen talked with him on the phone a long time. Even when he got really sick and\nGlen told him about his trip in 2001. I can\u2019t remember when Armit died [9 Aug\n2010]. He died two or three or four years before dad did [sic; Beneda died 23\nOct 2010]. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nDid you guys ever meet, mom?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nOh yeah! We went to his house in Colorado Springs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nI wonder if he has any surviving family.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nHe has a daughter. I used to get an email from her every once in a while, but I\nhaven\u2019t heard from her in a long time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It says he passed away in 2010.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\n2010? That\u2019s the same as Glen did. But I think he passed away before Glen. He\nwas very sick before he died. I think he had a bad stroke. Down in his basement\nhe had all kinds of memorabilia in there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nOne thing dad us too, Daniel, was there was a Japanese pilot who was captured\nalive. I\u2019m not sure of the details. But they sent my dad over\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nGlen was off flying status after he was shot down.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nYeah, he couldn\u2019t fly anymore. So, tell Daniel that story, mom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell, they had a radio outpost wherever that Japanese guy \u2013 they held him as\nprisoner. And they told Glen to go up there and get him and bring him back to\nheadquarters. So Glen had another young kid he took with him. I can\u2019t remember\nwho it was. But anyway, when he gets up there, who\u2019s the guy running the radio\noutpost was a kid who graduated high school with him in McCook! I mean, how\nstrange is that? So Glen told him, \u201cI\u2019m here to pick up the prisoner.\u201d And then\nthey were going to take him by boat back to headquarters. And Glen had his .45\non his side. And they had that Japanese guy to a light pole, or a telephone\npole. And when Glen walked up to him, Glen said he just absolutely, he said, \u201cI\nthought he was going to die right there.\u201d Then he said, \u201cI realized that he was\nlooking at that .45\u201d and thought Glen was going to shoot him. So then Glen told\nthe guy to come over and undo him he wanted to put the chains back on him and\nGlen said, \u201cNo.\u201d And he just took him by the hand and pointed and told him to\ngo towards that boat. And I think that Japanese guy was so grateful that he\ndidn\u2019t kill him, he was practically worshipping Glen after that. He said he\nbowed to him every time he turned around.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nDid dad say he took the bullets out of his gun, too, or not?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nNo, he didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nHe brought that guy back.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYeah, he took him back to headquarters. And they got a lot of information out\nof him. I don\u2019t remember Glen every saying what his name was. But he and that\nyoung kid \u2013 it was a Chinese kid that he had with him, like a\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nTranslator or something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nYeah, whatever. Anyway, they took him back to headquarters. I don\u2019t remember\nGlen every saying what happened to him from there. I don\u2019t think Glen even knew\nwhat happened to him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Ed:\nDo you think the blood chit had much to do with the number of Americans\nrescued?<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think it helped, but it wasn\u2019t\nthe critical factor. Especially where Glen went down, the Communists knew what\nto do.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Elinor:\nWell the other thing too is a lot of folks, when Glen kept waiving it and\nsaying, \u201cMeiguo, Meiguo!\u201d There was probably no one in that group of farmers\nthat was literate enough to know what it was and they kept point to these\nlittle out-sheds or whatever and then there was a man in there that he was\nliterate enough that he could read it. Probably the majority of the people in\nChina were not literate at all in their own language.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, I appreciate you guys talking\nto me. And I\u2019d love to see the documentary and I would appreciate being able to\nsee that. <\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Interview by Daniel Jackson, July 22, 2008 Can you tell me about the 6 May 1944 mission you flew alongside the 449th? At that time, the 449th had been attached to the 23rd Group and of course I was in the 76th Squadron of the 23rd Group. We were both stationed at Suichuan which is…<\/p>\nBeneda, Ed and Elinor. Interview by Daniel Jackson. 29 November 2015.<\/h2>\n\n\n\n