I\nwas surprised to hear that both your brothers also became pilots during the\nwar?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes. They were bomber pilots. One\nwas a B-17 pilot and one was a B-24 pilot. <\/p>\n\n\n\n What\nwas it about your family that made you all so fascinated with flying?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, I don\u2019t know about the other\ntwo, but I knew I didn\u2019t want to be on the ground in the trenches. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou grow up in a military family?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, my grandfather was a Confederate\nsoldier. And my uncle was a World War 1 soldier. I had a cousin who fought in\nthe Spanish-American War. So we kind of had a history, but we weren\u2019t a\nmilitary family \u2013 not by a long shot. My grandfather used to tell us stories\nabout when he was \u2013 he didn\u2019t like Sherman and he didn\u2019t like Yankees! He was\ncaptured in South Carolina and sent to prison in Baltimore. He wasn\u2019t too happy\nabout that. And I understand that Sherman\u2019s people burned his house down. He\nhad reason not to like him. But he would tell the older of us three \u2013 they\nactually had five children, and two died in infancy. I was the second son. And\nthen they had two girls. They were Mary and Joan. My sister Mary \u2013 older sister\n\u2013 was a wonderful golfer of course. She was an amateur, but she played with the\nlikes of Patty Burg, Louise Suggs, Meg Dietrichson. Not as a rule, but she\nplayed with them several times. She never went proam or anything like that. But\nMary was I think either three or four-time amateur state champion, for golfer.\nShe gave me a set of clubs that one of the companies had given her \u2013 I don\u2019t\nremember which make or manufacture it was. But they gave her a set of clubs and\nshe gave them to me. I put five golf balls and one golf club in the lake! Then\nI gave the clubs away. A golf swing is not natural. Baseball is. Minor league\nball was fun. Americus, when I was little, was an affiliate of the Dodgers, I\nthink. <\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nsounds like Americus was a pretty good place to grow up.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n It was fantastic, yeah. We had my\ngrandparents, on both my mother\u2019s side and my father\u2019s side. My father\u2019s people\nwere all Baptists. My mother\u2019s people were all Catholics. And I think we might\nhave had some bootleggers on each side. I don\u2019t know! Not really, but we had a\nlot of drinkers, I know. But Americus was fun to grow up in: minor league ball,\ntennis. I\u2019ll tell you a tennis story. We had a tennis team. Three of us played a\nlot of tennis together. One of them became number one on the team. And the\nother buddy and I became doubles. We won the district championship and then we\nwent to Macon to play for the state championship. We thought we were pretty\ngood. We played two boys from Atlanta. One was crippled and one was half blind.\nI think they beat us six-nothing. <\/p>\n\n\n\n You know a lot more about this than I do. Most\nof the action 14th Air Force was really down south. <\/p>\n\n\n\n I\ndisagree. It pretty well covered the entire country<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Well I know we sat on our rear ends so\nmuch that I didn\u2019t at times feel like a competent pilot. You have to fly to be\ncompetent. You know exactly what I\u2019m talking about. The more you fly, the more\nconfident you get in your own ability and the better you are. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When\nyou say you guys sat around a lot, are you talking about when you were at\u2026?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n At Chengdu. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When\nyou pushed forward to Xi\u2019an, it seemed like you were quite a bit busier.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, yes we were. But at Chengdu we were\nreally sitting on our rear ends most of the time. My squadron, and the group,\nas a matter of fact, got more combat time in Burma than it did in China. But\nthe 23rd Fighter Group really were the group that claimed the mantle of the\nFlying Tigers.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Chennault\ncalled everybody in the 14th Air Force the Flying Tigers. The Chinese still\ncall everyone the Flying Tigers\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n We never called ourselves the Flying\nTigers though, especially when we were over there. I don\u2019t think I knew I was a\nFlying Tiger until ten years later \u2013 not quite that much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So\nyou just saw yourself as a line pilot in the 311th Fighter Group?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. The people here, they all think I\nwas a Flying Tiger. I tell them I was not one of the original Flying Tigers. I\ndon\u2019t want to live off of that well-deserved fame. They were a special group of\npeople.<\/p>\n\n\n\n True,\nbut most of the AVG\u2019s combat took place in Burma. You were the American the\nChinese actually interacted with. So when they say Flying Tiger, you\u2019re who they\u2019re\nthinking about.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, that\u2019s probably right to a degree,\nbut the AVG \u2013 Chennault trained the Chinese pilots before he got the AVG down\nat Zhijiang, we called it. We went there, as a matter of fact, on the last trip\nI was on. <\/p>\n\n\n\n When\npeople think of China, they think of rice paddies. At Xi\u2019an you were in wheat\ncountry, correct?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, wheat or corn or whatever it was. They\nstill used human fertilizer though. That I remember. China is a beautiful\ncountry. You get on the Yangzi and go through those gorges. What is astounding\nto me is how they have rebuilt that country. I don\u2019t know if rebuilding is the\nword, but they have so much modern stuff now. Where there was an airbase now\nthere are ten thirty-five-story buildings. We went to Xi\u2019an ten years ago and I\ndon\u2019t think it looked to me like that city had changed near as much as some of\nthe other places. <\/p>\n\n\n\n My first mission \u2013 I don\u2019t know if I told\nyou about that mission \u2013 but my first mission we flew up over the Gobi Desert\ninto Mongolia. Who in God\u2019s green earth knew we were flying a combat mission into\nMongolia, for crying out loud, during World War Two? Trains. We caught a train\nalmost immediately. They let me have first crack at it since this was my first\nmission. I got too close to it. Hell, if they had a BB gun they could have shot\nme down! I got a lot of ragging about that. I didn\u2019t know what I was doing. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Were\nmost of your missions out of Xi\u2019an against railways?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. They were. That\u2019s about ninety\npercent of what we did \u2013 maybe more \u2013 looking for trains and troops and stuff\nlike that. I recall once or twice they had static lines \u2013 trench warfare up\nthere in the hills. And we had a spotter. I think his name was Sullivan, I\u2019m\nnot sure. He came back looking for us one time. We were scared to death he was\ngoing to kill us! We bombed pretty close to him! <\/p>\n\n\n\n Was\nhe OSS?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I think he was, yes. He was a captain. <\/p>\n\n\n\n So\nyou also flew close air support?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Close air support, I guess. We dropped\nnapalm. We were dropping napalm in the trenches. And that\u2019s an awful way to\ndie. You would see people come out in flames. But we dropped bombs. We dropped\nnapalm in the trenches. I think I went up there twice. I\u2019m not sure about that.\nI know I went up there once because of what happened on that one mission.\nSomebody said he was at the base looking for us. <\/p>\n\n\n\n The\nanti-aircraft fire taking down your planes, were those point defenses or were\nthey mobile on the train?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, they had some on the trains, but\nmost of it was small arms, I think, machineguns. It wasn\u2019t what I would call\nanti-aircraft fire, it wasn\u2019t anti-aircraft in that it wasn\u2019t heavy stuff. Not\na lot of what you think of in Europe, where you could walk on the stuff. You\nknow, not many people know about the B-17s and the B-24s, the way those boys\nwent out, just got slaughtered. Until the Mustang came along. They lost more\npeople than the Navy and the Marines combined! And you think about that\u2019s just\none air force, just the Eighth Air Force. It looks to me like you\u2019d have to\nhold a gun on them to get them back in the airplanes. They did an amazing job.\nFantastic. <\/p>\n\n\n\n The\n311th Fighter Group lost one P-51 for every one hundred ground attack sorties,\nwhile the 25th Fighter Squadron, which kept its P-40s, lost one for every three\nhundred ground attack sorties.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Isn\u2019t that something. The P-40 was a\nsturdy airplane. I don\u2019t know what happened to my airplane. I don\u2019t know what\nthey hit. The engine instruments didn\u2019t look that bad \u2013 as far as the temperature\nand stuff like that. But all I know is I had some smoke in the cockpit. But it\nwas more like an electrical smoke. And I did get a loud bang, but I still\nwonder what they hit. <\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nseems like it happened pretty fast.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n It did. <\/p>\n\n\n\n You\nwere probably out of the cockpit in a couple minutes at the most?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Something like that. My wingman didn\u2019t\neven know I was hit. So they must have hit the radio. But I accused him of\nbeing deaf because he should have been able to hear me!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Was\ntheir discussion in the squadron on how to mitigate the weaknesses of the\nairplane?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Not really. Not for what we were doing.\nThe losses you talk about \u2013 I don\u2019t think I ever realized the losses were that\nbad. We knew to come across the target instead of parallel to it and stay low \u2013\nas you passed over the target stay low before you pulled off. That gave them\nless chance to hit you. And things like that. Tactics maybe. But not so much\nwith the airplane. In fact the airplane was the airplane. We thought we had the\nbest airplane in the world. Everybody loved the Mustang. That\u2019s what everybody\nwanted to fly. As a matter of fact, I did not like the P-40. The P-40 I thought\nwas stiffer than the Mustang and had that narrow landing gear and great big\nnose up there. The first time I flew one I think I went ten miles before I\nthought to get the wheels up!<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\nalways heard that the P-51 was a real pilot\u2019s airplane.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n It was. Everything was seeable, reachable\n\u2013 it really was just a fantastic airplane. They took me up at PDK a few months\nago. They\u2019ve got a seat in the back of the thing. In fact I may have a picture\nsomewhere. It wasn\u2019t like flying it. They didn\u2019t have a stick in the back. But\nyou can\u2019t see, sitting in the back where the tank was. You can\u2019t see out. You\ndon\u2019t have the horizon. It was worse than flying instruments! And the Mustang\nwas not a great instrument flying aircraft. <\/p>\n\n\n\n I told you about our instrument landing\nsystems, you have to come in, pick up the rail line from the Yellow River bend\nand you picked up the railroad back to Xi\u2019an. And we would get to the second\nbridge from Xi\u2019an, east of it, and we\u2019d do a timed turn \u2013 about a minute I\nguess. The first plane would go, lead would go, the other three would go around\nagain, so we had a minute between each plane. But then you\u2019d slow down to about\ntwo hundred miles an hour or a hundred and eighty, somewhere like that. You\u2019d\ncome to the next bridge and drop five or ten degrees of flaps, slow down to\nabout a hundred and fifty, and turn right along the wall of the town. You had\nto count eleven guard posts. Eventually we got smart and painted a big white\ncircle around it. There you\u2019d turn thirty-five degrees, drop your flaps, drop\nyour gear, and land. That\u2019s instrument landing! We didn\u2019t have to do that much,\nbut that was the procedure. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Up\nthere I would assume more low-visibility than low-ceilings?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. That\u2019s exactly what it was. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou have a lot of anxiety about being caught out by the weather and not being\nable to make it back?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. Well, we had some of that. I went up\nin a sandstorm one day. I was leading a flight. Again, we were going up over\nthe Gobi Desert \u2013 this is maybe ten or fifteen missions later. They told us the\nweather was good all the way \u2013 clear. I was leading the flight. Curtiss got\nsick. But we ran into a sandstorm. So I told them, I said, \u201cwe\u2019ll go back and we\u2019ll\ndrop the bombs in the river.\u201d Well Al Calendar, that rascal, heard me. He was a\nhundred miles away, probably. \u201cThe hell you will! Those bombs are too precious!\nToo hard to get! Land with them!\u201d So we landed with the bombs. Of course they\nweren\u2019t armed, so it was alright. He was a bird. He was a great fellow. Al had\nthree DFCs. He may have had five. He had fourteen Air Medals. He was credited\nwith something like four and a half air victories. And I think they eventually\ngave him the other half, I\u2019m not sure. <\/p>\n\n\n\n What\nkind of leader was he?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n He came in later. He came in originally as\noperations officer. He was at Pinellas Air Base in St. Petersburg, when I was\nlearning to fly a Mustang. Well they had a P-40 squadron there too. And he was\nthe CO of that P-40 squadron. But I told him what a lousy job he did teaching\nus to fly! He said, \u201cWell, that\u2019s all I had to work with!\u201d He always had a\nquick comeback. Great fellow. I named him \u201cThe Generalissimo.\u201d But he\u2019s a nice\nfellow. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou get briefed on evasion procedures?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well one thing I remember \u2013 this was just\na normal conversation \u2013 they told us, \u201cdon\u2019t stand up when you get ready to\nbail out.\u201d So that\u2019s the first thing I did, was stand up. We knew \u2013 I don\u2019t\nknow if it came from having been out there or just sitting around talking, or\nif it was official instructions, but we knew pretty much wherever we were out\nthere, which way to go if you got hit to have the best chance of getting help.\nAnd that\u2019s kind of exactly what I did. I knew pretty much where I was was\ncontrolled by the Communists. But again in China, over here you\u2019d have an area\ncontrolled by the Communists, by the Nationalists, by the Japanese, by bandits\n\u2013 whomever. It was a very very fractured country. And you really didn\u2019t know\nwhat you were going to get. That last thing, I don\u2019t know if you remember the\nlast place I was. That was like an oasis in the middle of hell. Well, hell, it\nwasn\u2019t that bad, the whole thing. I was just very lucky. But to see this\ncompound out there, in the middle of nowhere, have a fellow come out of the\ngate, talk to you in Oxford English, see all this beautiful corn, watermelons \u2013\nit was amazing. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Was\nhe a communist?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n No, I don\u2019t think he was. I didn\u2019t meet\nhim. But I was talking to the fellow that worked for him. I don\u2019t remember his\nname either. He\u2019s one name I should remember. He talked kind of British. But if\npeople spoke English, that\u2019s what they were exposed to. He spoke very, very\ngood English. He was a smart man, no question about that. But to find that place\nout there in the middle of Communist China. He may have been Communist. If he\nwasn\u2019t, they left him alone, evidently. Because the whole area \u2013 not the whole\narea, most of it \u2013 was, the place I was before that was controlled by the\nCommunists, I know because they gave me a big banquet that damn near killed me!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Where\ndid you learn about the hand signal for the Eight Route Army?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Damn if I know, Dan. I don\u2019t remember.\nThey may have told us that in the briefing. That that\u2019s the signal for the\nEight Route Communist Army. Because I knew that that particular area was\ncontrolled by the Communists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou have any preconceptions about the Communists that was changed in your\nface-to-face interaction with them?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, I of course am very much opposed to\ncommunism. But if communism would work in any place, it should have worked in\nChina. They had such a mass of people you know, five hundred million people.\nNow they\u2019ve got a billion and a half or whatever it is. It\u2019s hard to control\nfive hundred million people. I\u2019m afraid that\u2019s where our country is headed.\nWe\u2019re so damn divided and so damn diverse. You can\u2019t get people to do what you\nwould like to see done. I\u2019m scared of Trump, to tell you the truth. Not Trump\nmaybe particularly, but the result of him. I\u2019m scared of her the other way:\nsocialism. One\u2019s going this way, one\u2019s going that way. We need somebody to go\nthis way [middle]. We don\u2019t want to go this way, we don\u2019t want to go that way,\nwe want to go that way [middle]. And so what do you do about it? Then you get\nsome jackass that thinks he knows the answer! Then the first thing you know,\nhe\u2019s a dictator. And life gets worse. <\/p>\n\n\n\n You\u2019ve\nmet Mao Zedong. At the time, it must not have seemed particularly significant.\nWhen it did register that \u201cWow, I met that guy\u201d?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, to say that I met him is maybe an\noverkill. We were there. We were introduced to him. But did I meet <\/em>him? I don\u2019t know [if I\u2019d say\nthat]. We did not know that much about him. That\u2019s a hard question to answer\nbecause I don\u2019t really remember. I think that when I got home and Chiang\nKai-shek \u2013 they were having the war over there. We knew that Mao Zedong was\nopposed to Chiang Kai-shek and we were on Chiang Kai-shek\u2019s side. Well\neverybody now thinks that Chiang Kai-shek was the devil, but at least he was on\nour side. That\u2019s one of our problems where we are now. Sometimes you have to\ndeal with the devil. You may not want to, but you have to take the best of the\nworst. I think we\u2019re all human. And we want to be left alone as much as we can.\nBut at the same time we want the protection that the government affords. We\nwant our families to be safe, and so forth. I think regardless of the culture,\nI don\u2019t care whether you\u2019re Hispanic, or even Muslim, whatever \u2013 and I say even\nMuslim, to me that\u2019s an evil religion, that son of a bitch was crazy, if you\u2019ll\npardon my French \u2013 but it\u2019s complicated. <\/p>\n\n\n\n How\nwell did you know Tom Hill?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I didn\u2019t know Tom that well. We had two\nrooms; Elmer [Youngblood] and I live in one room and Tom and a couple other\nfellows in the other. There\u2019s a door and Tom lives here and Al and I live\nthere. And we saw him. But to say I called him a friend \u2013 I knew him. They were\nall friends. But I knew him casually. He was not in an intimate way a close\nfriend. His brother came to see me later at one of our reunions. That was a\nlittle uncomfortable. I know they cut his head off, according to what the\nfellow told me. I still to this day don\u2019t know whether he was alive or whether\nhe was dead. But I have a strong suspicion that he was dead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nsounds like from your report if he wasn\u2019t dead, he was near death.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. Again, I would not consider him a\nclose personal friend. But he was a friend. I knew him, in other words.\nEveryone in the squadron was a friend. He hadn\u2019t been there that long, as I\nrecall, I don\u2019t think. He was relatively new, I think, looking back on it, but\nI\u2019d have to look at the record. But as far as I knew, he was a nice young man.\nProbably nicer than Elmer and I were. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Most\nof the coworkers, acquaintances, and friends that I\u2019ve lost throughout my time\n\u2013 there have been some that I was close with \u2013 but most of them have been\npeople that I knew, but it was an acquaintance.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. That was more like Tom. Yes. Even\nthough we lived right there together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019ve\nalways been curious how that affects people. For me it was a weird thing\nemotionally, because I wasn\u2019t distraught, because I didn\u2019t know the guy that\nwell. It was just strange. I\u2019m curious if it was a similar thing for you:\nupsetting that he\u2019s dead, but also strange because you didn\u2019t know him that\nwell. <\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Uh\u2026 yeah. Well even with the people that I\nknew real well \u2013 I don\u2019t know how to describe it. It\u2019s kind like maybe you\nexpected it. Like Bruce Jepson. Bruce \u2013 we lived together. I don\u2019t know how\nlong. It was not like losing a brother or a sister or a child or a parent or\neven a very close friend. But Bruce was a friend. <\/p>\n\n\n\n How\nlong did you know Bruce?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Jep \u2013 we lived together a year, something\nlike that. <\/p>\n\n\n\n He\nwent down in April of 1945, so a month after you got to China.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Alright. I didn\u2019t go down until what,\nJuly? Hell, if I had known the war was going to end, I wouldn\u2019t have done that!\nThey should have told us that they had that bomb they were fixing to use, \u201cJust\nhold off.\u201d Look at the lives they could have saved. <\/p>\n\n\n\n He\u2019s\nstill listed as missing in action.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Jep is?<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah.\nThey never recovered his body. <\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well I know where he is. You know that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Well\nI\u2019ve got the coordinates. Who knows what happened to him though.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, but I know where he is. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Where\nis he?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n You don\u2019t know that story?<\/p>\n\n\n\n No.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n We had a reunion in D.C. And before that I\nhad a call from a fellow with the government. And he was with the Chinese\nembassy. Our embassy in Washington \u2013 I\u2019m sorry, in Beijing. He was the military\nattach\u00e9. A Chinaman came to him and said he knew where the body of an American\nwas buried, back up in the middle of nowhere close to where \u2013 I wish I had\nwritten this all down. But anyway, this fellow from the embassy organized a\nparty to go back up there. And they found an old man who had been a child when\nJep went down, had seen the airplane crash, burn, the pilot trying to get out.\nAnd he told them, he said the Japanese had come and buried the body. And then\nthe Chinese went and reburied it. And after that, as I understand, it was right\neither at the corner of a building or right under the corner of a building that\nhad been built. I don\u2019t know if it was this high or if it was twenty stories.\nThey recovered the remains that were there and sent them to the Philippines.\nThey discovered they were oriental bones, not occidental. They were Chinese.\nWhat had happened, the Chinese had come and got the body, thought he was\nChinese, and Jepson is now buried in the Chinese National Heroes Cemetery. The\nway this fellow told me, the Chinese would not admit that they had made a\nmistake and wanted to save face. As far as I know, Jepson\u2019s body is still over\nthere in that cemetery. In the Chinese cemetery. And I\u2019ve never heard any\ndifferent. I\u2019ve had \u2013 not in the last couple of years \u2013 calls and correspondence\nfrom some of his relatives wanting to know about it. I\u2019ve kind of forgotten\nsome of the details now myself. But as far as I know Jepson is still over there\nin that cemetery. <\/p>\n\n\n\n How\ndid he go down?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s a damn good question. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Were\nyou on the mission with him?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n No. Elmer Youngblood was. Elmer and Jepson\nand I roomed together in a tent at Xi\u2019an. And then later, Elmer and I roomed\ntogether in a building. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Looking\nat the other folks that went down: Sam Chambliss? <\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Sam, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Taken\nprisoner. <\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Sam was a nut. He went over there and\nwanted to win battles and this that and the other.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Myitkyina was the 311th group\u2019s claim to\nfame. As the story goes with that operation, there\u2019s a fellow Jim, might be\ndead now, it\u2019s been quite a while, Jim \u2013 what the hell was his last name?\nAnyway, he was with the OSS out there at Myitkyina when they were having the\nbattle. He operated mostly by himself. He was a Ranger, Army Ranger, operated\nby himself and he had several other fellows out there with him at some point.\nWell, yeah but sometimes we drop a bomb and miss by fifty yards \u2013 dumb bomb and\ndumb pilots too. Guesswork. I hit a bridge one day. Went right through it. But\nanyway, Jim was operating at Myitkyina and had two or three other fellows with\nhim. One of the fellows, every morning, his toothbrush would be in a different\nplace than where he had put it. And he thought the other fellows were trying to\nplay a trick on him. So he decided he\u2019d stay up and see what was happening.\nWell, he found that a monkey was using his toothbrush to scratch his ass with\nit. So I understand they ended up with a dead monkey. Before that, one of the\nnew fellows had shot an elephant. And the herd ran off into the bushes. That\nnight they came back and destroyed their camp. Don\u2019t make an elephant mad.\nThey\u2019ve got a long memory. <\/p>\n\n\n\n What\ndid you do after the war?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I sold envelopes. A very complicated\nbusiness! If you wanted a hundred thousand, I couldn\u2019t sell to you. If you\nwanted a million I could sell them to you. We also sold through distributors\ntoo. And then I had some of the big corporate accounts. I sold to people like\nAT&T or Southern Bell, and then Southern Company, Georgia Power, Alabama Power,\nMississippi Power, Gulf Power, Gulf Oil, National Data. I did the billing for\nAtlantic Ridgefield. GE Credit \u2013 big companies. They used at least fifty\nmillion of those that I just mentioned. I had fun. I bribed them! I took them\nfishing. I would take them to lunch and entertain them and take them fishing\nand first thing you know, they want you to have the business. A good salesman\nlooks after his customers as much as he does his business. Without that\ncustomer, your companies not going to make it. <\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nseems like a lot of people don\u2019t remember World War II in China because they\ncan\u2019t separate the result of the civil war from our effort in World War II. Is\nthat something you struggled with? Or did you just move on after the war?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Not in that exact way, I guess.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\nguess I\u2019m asking, did you ever go back to try and process what happened over\nthere and make sense of it mentally?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n No, not in so many words. Of course, you\nremember it. You\u2019re a nineteen, twenty-year-old, twenty-one-year-old kid. It\u2019s\nlike you in the Air Force Academy. You\u2019ll remember all that the rest of your\nlife. You remember eating square meals and saying \u201cYes sir\u201d and \u201cNo sir\u201d\nwhether you wanted to or not! But China was the forgotten theater because the\nmain enemy was Hitler, as far as we were concerned, even after the Japanese\nbombed Pearl Harbor. China was the forgotten theater because in the CBI, the\nBritish wanted to regain their colony. The French were the same way. They\nwanted to go back and get into Indochina. We had not a whole lot to gain, as\nfar as I could see, by being there. Had it not been for the Flying Tigers, we\nmight not have been there at all. But the Flying Tigers got a lot of attention.\nThe main battle was Europe. And I don\u2019t think we ever talked that much about it\nor resented it in any way. That was what Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Churchill\ndecided we would do, so that\u2019s what was done.<\/p>\n\n\n\n There wasn\u2019t anything romantic about it. One\nof the things that I always regretted: that I didn\u2019t see more of China while I\nhad the opportunity. We were a bunch of spoiled brats and thought that we were\nbetter than they were and they were underlings and this that and the other\nthing. The poverty was unbelievable. I don\u2019t see how people live like that. But\nit made us look down on them, I think. We never really got to associate with\nthe upper echelon of the Chinese people. I don\u2019t know that we would have wanted\nto anyway.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nseems like corruption was especially prevalent around American bases.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, but walking out, the Chinese were\njust terrific to me with what they did. But people living in caves, no water,\nnowhere to take a bath, you know, that kind of stuff. I don\u2019t see how they\nsurvived.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou see your perception of the character of Chinese people change during your\nwalk out?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes. Because I thought a whole lot more of\nthem. I had a much better opinion of them. Bear in mind, where I went down,\nonce you got away from where I was shot down, the Japanese were afraid to go\nthere too. So I would come to a village, hell, the whole village would come out\njust to take a look at you \u2013 just to see an American. I wasn\u2019t in any real\ndanger until we crossed the lines again going back the other way. I thought I\nhad a very uneventful trip, to tell you the truth. But yes, my opinion of the\nChinese changed after that, because I remember the first day, the first night,\nthe next morning, whenever it was, coming to an old couple\u2019s home. They lived\nin a cave. They fed me and let me sleep in their bed. I wish they hadn\u2019t,\nbecause I got full of lice! And they were so open and welcoming. In fact, I\nliked the Chinese people much more after that. I felt much better of them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n What\ndid it mean to you to go back later in life?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, that was nice, but we went back kind\nof in a different way \u2013 as tourists. In fact, I was invited to go back because\nI was considered to be a Flying Tiger. Every place we would come into they had\na sign up: \u201cWelcome American Heroes.\u201d We weren\u2019t heroes. We were just\u2026 but I\nsaw them in a different light. Today, China seems \u2026 it\u2019s amazing what the\nCommunists have done. It seems much more prosperous. In the process, the people\nhave lost their freedom. But in the same process they seem to eat better and\nlive better. And of course I think China has eased up on a lot of their\nrestrictions with free enterprise and so forth. Which to me shows that they\u2019ve\ngot some moxie. They\u2019re smart enough to realize this doesn\u2019t work like we\nthought it would.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When\nyou went back, did you end up meeting anyone that helped rescue you?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Not me, but they had a couple of Chinese\nmen that had helped some pilots out. They weren\u2019t anybody that I knew. They\ndidn\u2019t give the pilots\u2019 names. It could have been staged \u2013 I don\u2019t know. I\ndon\u2019t think it was. They seemed genuine. <\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nseems like so many hundreds of aircrew were rescued \u2013 584 from 14th Air Force\nand CATF \u2013 that it wouldn\u2019t be hard to find some people that helped.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Five hundred and eighty-four? So my\nexperience is not unique in any manner.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\nmeans your experience was representative. You were face-to-face with the\nChinese people you were there to support.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I think even then you kind of felt \u2013 not\nlooking down on them is not quite the word \u2013 but you felt a little superior or\nwhat not. I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s probably the wrong way to put that. But to me\nthey were terrific.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou have any preconceptions before you even got to China?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n There was a movie… it had a Chinese\ndetective. What was his name? Well that\u2019s kind of the way I looked on China. <\/p>\n\n\n\n I\u2019m\nassuming growing up in Georgia you didn\u2019t have any interaction with Chinese in\nyour life?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Nope. Other than the movies, I doubt if I\nknew what a Chinaman looked like.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That\nwas your first experience outside of the United States \u2013 was going to war?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Oh yeah, first time I had been out of the\ncountry, yeah. Probably the first time I had been out of Georgia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n When\nyou went to pilot training?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n When I went in the Army. I had been to\nD.C. and Charleston, South Carolina, Florida and whatnot. I wouldn\u2019t say we\nwere poor, but we were a long way from being rich. My daddy was a railroad man.\nHe always had a job and we had a wonderful life growing up. They were wonderful\nparents. They fed us, housed us, clothed us, educated us. And that\u2019s hard to do\nwith seven children. They had nine, originally. But we had a wonderful family.\nThe fact is, after the war, when we were all grown and married, having\nchildren, this that and the other, we always stayed close. All of us had a\nlittle bit of the bubbly, we would get together and harmonize. I had one\nbrother had the best bass voice I\u2019ve ever heard. His timing was impeccable. My\nother brother, John, he \u2013 John was a pilot. John just died a couple months ago.\nSo I\u2019m the last of the Mohicans now. But John had a great tenor, or alto \u2013\nwhatever you call it. And we\u2019d harmonize. And I had a problem with them. I may\nhave told you this at some point, I don\u2019t know, but they couldn\u2019t sing drunk\nand they couldn\u2019t sing sober. I had to catch them right in between! And then,\nafter a good bit of this [alcohol], the children would beg us to stop! We had a\ngood time. I had a great family. But as far as the Chinese go \u2013 what in the\nhell was that detective\u2019s name? But he was always smarter than everybody else.\nHe was very underplayed. Low key. But he always had the answer. That\u2019s kind of\nthe way I looked at the Chinese. Who else but the Chinese would put five\nthousand people out there making a runway by hand? From kids this tall to\npeople as old as I am, pounding rocks. The little ones would pound little\nrocks. The big ones pounded the big rocks. And then hook them up to a roller\nand pave. It was unreal. There were a couple times where they would be working\non the runway and you\u2019d land. It was like rain, just spraying in front of your\nwindshield. They really are to me just an amazing people. That you can have a\nbillion and a half people \u2013 how do you feed them? I think that\u2019s one of the\nproblems with China is population \u2013 food, how do\u2026? Another thing; we worry\nabout atom bombs and so forth, I think we\u2019re going to have to at some point\nwonder how we\u2019re going to feed the world. We really are still raping the oceans\nand whatnot \u2013 the seas. How much fish can the oceans produce? <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou go to China knowing that beyond the Nationalist government there were\nwarlords and communists?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n We didn\u2019t know that over here until we got\nthere. And Mao Zedong, we didn\u2019t know that much about him until we got there \u2013\nwe didn\u2019t know that much then, really. We knew he was at Yan\u2019an. That wasn\u2019t\ntoo far from Xi\u2019an. And we knew that for the most part we were operating over\nCommunist territory. And then of course the whole group was moved to Shanghai.\nAnd what they were doing there was trying to protect stuff that we had been\ntrying to destroy. They were trying to prevent the Chinese Communists and the\nRussians from taking over the Chinese coast. They\u2019ve squabbled over Manchuria\nfor centuries, the Chinese and the Japanese and the Russians. You know, it\u2019s a\nscrewed up world, is what it amounts to. They squabble in Europe and they\nsquabble in Asia. We took this place from the Indians.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah,\nI don\u2019t think we understood how complicated the political situation was until\nwe got over there.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n We didn\u2019t. Absolutely not. We thought we\nwere doing the right thing. We thought we were helping the Chinese against\nbrutal Japanese aggression. And you had Meiling Song \u2013 Madame Chiang \u2013 lobbying\nwith Roosevelt and whatnot. Having gone to Wesleyan College there in Macon we\nknew a little bit about her, not a whole lot. But I think we were doing it out\nof the goodness of the American heart, to tell you the truth. I think we\u2019re\nstill a great country at heart. I think we\u2019re the greatest country in the\nworld. I think we still have that. I think we have good people. I don\u2019t care\nwhat stage of civilization \u2013 whether you go way back in history or five hundred\nyears from now \u2013 people are going to be people. Humans are humans. You\u2019ll have\ngood and bad. I think our intentions over the history of our country have been\nfor the best \u2013 not always right. We\u2019ve made errors. But we have freedom. Which\nyou are above others and probably the great majority with what you are doing.\nFreedom is a very precious commodity, or asset, whatever you want to call it. I\nthink we are at the stage of overdoing some of it, but we go so far this way \u2013\nwe go over to Hillary or we go over to Trump. What better analogy can you use?\nWhy in the hell we ended up with that kind of choice\u2026 what happened? How did it\nhappen? You\u2019ve got to hold your nose to vote for either one of them. And I\u2019m\nafraid we are so divided that we could lose our freedom as a result of it.\nBecause you\u2019ll get some idiot, like Mussolini, or Perone, Castro. Look what\nhappens. Same way with Russia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\u2019s\ninteresting in China at the political level with the bickering between Stilwell\nand Chennault and Chiang\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, it\u2019s a wonder we won!<\/p>\n\n\n\n But\nwhile that was going on, you had a person-to-person contact with the Chinese on\nthe ground. You as a young American fighter pilot were the American the average\nChinese person saw.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah. And I was at their mercy. They could\nhave killed me without batting an eye.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou feel vulnerable with them? Did you feel exposed?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Not really. You\u2019re a pilot. You have a lot\nof confidence in yourself. You get up there. You\u2019ve got control of you. That\nwas the situation. I had control, but I knew I\u2019d survive. Maybe that\u2019s a\nnormal, human feeling I guess, but we think of it happening to the other guy,\nnot you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n What\nabout when it happened to you? Did you have a feeling of dependency or\nvulnerability?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well, I wasn\u2019t really scared. I guess\nmaybe I was wondering what was going to happen, but I don\u2019t think I was ever\nterrified, or anything like that. I didn\u2019t think I was going to die. But when\nthey told me about Hill, I knew I didn\u2019t want to be captured. I don\u2019t know.\nLife is funny. None of us\u2026 I\u2019m ninety-two years old, I know I\u2019m going to die. I\ndon\u2019t know when it\u2019s going to be. It may be tomorrow, it may be ten more years\n\u2013 I don\u2019t know. At some point you\u2019re going to die. One way or the other, that\u2019s\nour destiny. We can\u2019t do a damn thing about it. I think that\u2019s kind of the way\n\u2013 as a fighter pilot or whatever \u2013 tomorrow\u2019s another day. You deal with it.\nThat doesn\u2019t mean you don\u2019t worry. We did worry sometimes. I had enough sense\nto know if I flew over this place they had more ack ack down there than they\ndid somewhere else. I knew to fly crossways instead of lengthwise. But I knew\nI\u2019d get out. I don\u2019t know why. I knew some way I\u2019d survive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou have an awareness of being an ambassador of sorts \u2013 that you would be the\nonly American many of these people would see?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well yes, to a degree. I tried not to be\noffensive to them. You could tell when the whole village would come out to\ngreet you, or you\u2019d wake up in the morning and the windows \u2013 there were no\nwindows, just a hole, you know \u2013 you\u2019d have ten people in each window looking\nat you. And you wanted to behave. In other words, I knew I was an American. I\nknew they were Chinese. I knew they were different. I didn\u2019t know that much\nabout their culture, but I tried to be careful not to offend them. I did have\nenough sense for that, even though I was twenty years old \u2013 twenty-one,\nwhatever. How old was I? 1945\u2026 I was twenty-one. They were marvelous people.\nThe little boy \u2013 the young student they gave me to look after me \u2013 he couldn\u2019t\nhave been but thirteen or fourteen, but hell, I wasn\u2019t five or six years older\nthan he was. But he would get me rice and honey. I found out pretty quickly I\nshouldn\u2019t eat their food because it tore me up. I had been told to live on rice\nand honey, so this young fellow they assigned to me, I don\u2019t know where he got\nit, but every night he\u2019d have rice and honey and boiled water. That was a hard\nlesson for them to learn; they would give me \u2013 they gave me the first couple of\ntimes \u2013 boiling water. I wanted cold boiled water. I think the word for that\nwas leng kai shui or something like that. I did cuss a bit when that first\nhappened, because you blister your lips, but I should have had enough sense to\nfeel the cup was hot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n You\nmust have been, to a degree, in survival mode, right?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, I guess. Yeah, to a degree \u2013 yes.\nI\u2019m at their mercy. Whether I survive or not is more up to them than it is to\nme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\ndon\u2019t even mean that so much as you just bailed out of an airplane and now\nyou\u2019re in a strange place and unable to communicate with people except through\na pointie-talkie, right?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s right. We had the book \u2013\npointie-talkie. Where did I get that? I don\u2019t know if it was in my pocket or\nwhere it was. But anyway, I did have a pointie-talkie. But the problem there\nwas that nobody could read!<\/p>\n\n\n\n Was\nit useful at all? Did they find somebody that could read? It seems like people\nalready knew what to do with you when you hit the ground.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes. I guess it was the first day. Late\nthat night, or maybe it was the next morning, I forgot, but a fairly well-educated\nman \u2013 he\u2019s the one that told me about Tom Hill. He could speak some English.\nPretty good English. He spoke a hell of a lot better English than I did\nChinese! But you couldn\u2019t find anybody that could read the damn Chinese. And\neven today you show somebody a Chinese book and I don\u2019t know how they ever\nlearn how to read and write! But you\u2019ll get a different interpretation. If you\nask this person to read it, they\u2019ll tell you generalities, but they won\u2019t tell\nyou this word means \u201cthe\u201d or \u201cthat.\u201d The Chinese are not dumb people; they had\na civilization before we did! <\/p>\n\n\n\n Trying\nto think of the war from the big picture\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well see, you\u2019re well read on it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\nmay understand it from the academic perspective, but you lived it.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I lived it, but bear in mind, I was a\nsecond lieutenant. I did what I was told to do. I wasn\u2019t in with Stilwell or\u2026 <\/p>\n\n\n\n But\nyou were a flight leader, out there leading two or four people. How many\u2026<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Probably about half of them [missions]\nwere leads, I guess.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nyou have a certain number of missions you had to fly as wingman before you\nbecame a flight leader?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well I was never what I\u2019d call a \u201cflight\nleader,\u201d I just led a lot of missions for some reason.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I\nknow there was an administrative job: this guy is in charge of A Flight. I mean\nin the air you led flights.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yes, I led four planes. We\u2019d go out in\nfour-plane flights. I probably, maybe half the missions were leads.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Was\nthat just something where they said, \u201cYou\u2019ve had enough experience, you\u2019re in\ncharge of this flight\u201d?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I guess so. I think the first flight I led\nwas with Al [Calendar]. It might have been the second or third, I don\u2019t know,\nbut I knew he was checking me out. He wouldn\u2019t admit that either, but he was.\nThat\u2019s when I hit that bridge and the bomb went right through.<\/p>\n\n\n\n That\nwas when he was evaluating you?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, but I learned a lot from him\nimmediately. He flew formation like we should always have flown it. Once we got\nout there, he was way out here. Usually we\u2019d go out pretty close. He\u2019s out here\nwhere if something got on my tail, he could get it. If something got on his\ntail, I could get it. But again, that was from flying aerial combat. He was an\nace. He flew Spitfires. He went over with the 1st Pursuit Group, Fighter Group.\nThey were based in North Africa. They were flying P-40s. And the British loaned\nthem Spitfires, because the P-40 was no match for the Me-109. Chennault learned\nhow to use the P-40. You came up on the Japanese from behind or you approached\nthem head-on. Or go down through. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Did\nCalendar talk about his experience a lot, or was most of what you learned from\nhim by watching him?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Just watching him. I didn\u2019t really get to\nknow Al real well until we got back over to this side of the world. I knew him\nof course. And he knew me. He came in as operations officer and was made CO.\nAnd shortly after he was made CO, I got shot down. But I knew that mission I\nflew with him I knew he was checking me out. In fact, I accused him of being a\nlittle underhanded about it \u2013 sneaky, not underhanded. And he just laughed. He\nwas a great fellow \u2013 and a great family too. She just died, last December I\nguess it was. She was a great gal. <\/p>\n\n\n\n How\nold was he during the war? As a squadron commander, he must have been in his\nlate twenties.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Al was not that much older than I am. When\nhe died, he probably was in his nineties \u2013 89 or 90. And it\u2019s been about five\nyears since he died. He was about three years older than I am. <\/p>\n\n\n\n So\nhe was a squadron commander at twenty-four or twenty-five?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Well I would say twenty-six or\ntwenty-seven. I think he was in the graduating class of 1940, or something like\nthat. He graduated from flying school before we got into the war. As did my\nbrother Tim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n What\u2019s\ninteresting in looking at the people in your group that went down, there\u2019s a\nlot of leadership. Gabe Disosway got shot down, the group commander.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Disosway? They went out and picked him up\nimmediately! They made me wait.<\/p>\n\n\n\n What\nwas the reaction at the line-pilot level when the group commander was shot\ndown?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n I don\u2019t think I even knew it! And if I\ndid, we didn\u2019t give a shit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Well\nI appreciate you sharing with me. What I was missing was the less-concrete\npieces, like how your perceptions changed. That\u2019s hard to pin down.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n That\u2019s still hard to pin down. I don\u2019t\nknow, maybe it\u2019s racial \u2013 looking down on the Yellow race, like we looked down\non the Blacks. You don\u2019t intend to be racist. You don\u2019t want to be racist, but\nto some degree, I think I still am. I think a lot of us are. We recognize the\ndifferences in race and culture, the habits, the wealth or the poorness or\nwhatever. We have some wonderful Black people in this building. If all Blacks\nwere like that I\u2019d want to be Black. And we had some wonderful Blacks growing\nup. But they were servants. The Chinese situation, you know, the Yellow peril\nthat was talked about, even back during the thirties. You\u2019d get the pulp\nmagazines and they would talk about the Yellow peril.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So\nyou walked into China with a lot of cultural baggage?<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n Yeah, I think we all did. I don\u2019t think it\nwas just me. I think we thought for the most part that we are the superior race\nand I think we still do. We look at what\u2019s going on in Asia now and with the\nArabs\u2026 we weren\u2019t quite as screwed up in World War II as we are now, I don\u2019t\nthink. And God knows when you get my age what it\u2019s going to be like \u2013 if in\nfact you get to live to my age. <\/p>\n\n\n\n Well,\nI think it\u2019s important to tease out the nature of the war in China \u2013 it was so\ndifferent than Europe<\/em>. <\/p>\n\n\n\n It was a different war, no question about\nthat. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Interview by Daniel Jackson, October 15, 2016 I was surprised to hear that both your brothers also became pilots during the war? Yes. They were bomber pilots. One was a B-17 pilot and one was a B-24 pilot. What was it about your family that made you all so fascinated with flying? Well, I don\u2019t…<\/p>\n