Interview by Daniel Jackson, July 2007
Robert Burris:
I’ve got, the only thing we both thought of was you may or may not have had a contact with a pilot by the name of James Heitkotter.
Daniel Jackson:
I actually did get a hold of Jim Heitkotter. He actually gave me quite a bit of stuff. He had a recorded—
Robert Burris:
Well, he’s in a position to give you a whole lot of things from the operational standpoint of the 449th.
Daniel Jackson:
Right, right.
Robert Burris:
From the pilot’s end. Us guys that was on the ground, we kicked the tires and waved bye-bye and fixed them when they come back.
Daniel Jackson:
Right, right.
Robert Burris:
But there was a lot of things that they could tell you that went on during missions that we wouldn’t know about, and Heitkotter went through quite an experience. He got shot down. I remember when some guy went in there on an L-5 and picked him up and they just met a few years back.
Daniel Jackson:
Right. I remember seeing the Jing Bao Journal article on it.
Robert Burris:
And we both thought that Jim could probably give you quite a bit. Now there’s one other person and he’s not a member of the 449th, I mean, he’s not a member of the association, but he was an armament officer in my squadron in Africa named Joe Mohr. Have you had any dealings with him?
Daniel Jackson:
No, sir, I haven’t.
Robert Burris:
Well, Joe lives in Palm Springs, and I’ve only seen him one time since World War II. I met him in Santa Fe, New Mexico, here about six or seven years ago. Now he was the person who got me to go to China when we formed the organization. And when we got to China, Joe stayed at Fourteenth Air Force headquarters. He never came to the outfit. He probably has got a whole lot of information because he’s sitting there at Fourteenth Air Force headquarters knowing what’s going on that we don’t know out in the field. I do have his address and phone number. I don’t know how much he could give you, but I would get that for you if you’d like.
Daniel Jackson:
Sure. That’d be excellent.
Robert Burris:
Pardon me?
Daniel Jackson:
That would be excellent. Thank you.
Robert Burris:
I’m sorry I didn’t hear you.
Daniel Jackson:
That would be excellent. Thank you. You’re actually on speakerphone right now because I have kind of a feeble memory too, so I have to record these so that I don’t misquote you at some point.
Robert Burris:
Hold on just a second. Sometimes I can’t hear with the hearing aid in and I might be able to hear you now. Say again?
Daniel Jackson:
Can you hear me now?
Robert Burris:
Pardon me?
Daniel Jackson:
Can you hear me now?
Robert Burris:
Yeah, I can hear you. Go ahead. Now what did you say in the beginning?
Daniel Jackson:
I said that would be excellent if you could send that to me, his address and phone number, Joe Mohr’s.
Robert Burris:
You would like to have it?
Daniel Jackson:
Yes, please, if you could, that’d be excellent.
Robert Burris:
Okay. Hold on just a second. I’m going to go to my file at the other desk. I’ve got my book over there. Hold on.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay.
Robert Burris:
Okay. Let’s see if I can find his number here. This Mohr is spelled M-O-H-R. Here he is.
Daniel Jackson:
M-O-H-R
Robert Burris:
Joe Mohr, M-O-H-R. And in case something’s happened to him, his wife is named Marilyn and they live at 2151 La Paz, that’s spelled L-A, another word, P-A-Z, Way in Palm Springs, California 92264. And his phone number is 1-760-
Daniel Jackson:
Just a second. I’m catching up to you.
Robert Burris:
Say what?
Daniel Jackson:
I have to catch up to you here. Palm Springs, California. What was the zip code again?
Robert Burris:
The Palm Springs, California 92264.
Daniel Jackson:
92264, okay.
Robert Burris:
Nine like in niner.
Daniel Jackson:
Right. Got it.
Robert Burris:
And his phone number is 1-760-
Daniel Jackson:
760-
Robert Burris:
… 323-
Daniel Jackson:
323-
Robert Burris:
Yes. 1693.
Daniel Jackson:
1693.
Robert Burris:
Excuse me?
Daniel Jackson:
Got it.
Robert Burris:
Okay. He was an armament officer in the 49th Fighter Squadron of the 14th Fighter Group. He was my armament officer. And he’s the one that told me about getting on this deal to go to China, and we more or less went together. In fact, we did go together.
And when we got to Kunming, he stayed in Kunming and I went straight on up to Lingling, and he never was with us again. So I never knew much about him. I knew where he was and kept up with him and everything, and he never did join the organization. And somewhere I got a hold of his phone number or somewhere, and I called him.
And he and his wife are all interested in all this stuff that the Indians make. So they come to Santa Fe, New Mexico, every year. And I used to live in Albuquerque, so I met him up in Santa Fe and that was about 2000 or 2001. Joe’s probably a couple years older than I am.
Daniel Jackson:
Right, right.
Robert Burris:
He could give you a whole lot of information from headquarters’ standpoint.
Daniel Jackson:
Gotcha. I’m also interested in things from your point of view too, sir, if you don’t mind if I ask a few questions.
Robert Burris:
Not at all. Go ahead. And if I possibly can, I’ll certainly answer.
Daniel Jackson:
Sweet. First of all, I think it was Dick Maddox that called the 449th “The Forgotten Squadron,” just because it was forgotten in the history books and not much mention has been made of it. Would you agree with that statement and-
Robert Burris:
Now what’s this now?
Daniel Jackson:
Dick Maddox calls the 449th “The Forgotten Squadron,” and I was wondering if you agreed with that statement?
Robert Burris:
I really would. I think it was kind of forgotten. And let me tell you why. When we went to China—and this is strictly hearsay. I don’t have any facts on this, but I understand that General Chennault was making every effort he could to get some high-altitude fighters and he wanted some P-51s. They were just being produced at that time. And I guess he had everybody in Washington he knew working on it. Well, the war in Africa was over. We had just beat Rommel and we were kind of sitting holding tight, getting ready to go into Italy. And we had these excess—we had three fighter groups of P-38s: the 1st Fighter Group, the 82nd, and the 14th, which I was a member of. So what they decided: the P-38 was a high-altitude fighter and they decided to form this organization and send twenty P-38s to China.
And as I understand it, he was disappointed—highly—because he didn’t get what he wanted. And we were first attached to the 23rd Fighter Group, which was the 74th, 75th and 76th Squadron. And that was the fair-haired boys, as you know.
Daniel Jackson:
Right.
Robert Burris:
Tex Hill was commander of the 75th at one time. He wasn’t at that particular time, he was back in the States, but he came back and took over the 23rd Fighter Group. Well, they had us attached to the 23rd as the fourth squadron. Then they kind of took us out of it. I don’t know where we belonged. And then they brought the 51st in from down in India or Burma or somewhere. And I don’t know the numbers of the squadrons, the 16th and the 20—
Daniel Jackson:
25th and 26th, I think that—
Robert Burris:
But anyway, we never were very close to the 51st, but we became a member of the 51st Fighter Group. And that’s where Heitkotter come out of. Heitkotter came out of the 51st Group, one of those squadrons, and joined us later. He was not a charter member of the organization, but he did quite a few things air-wise, and that’s why I thought he might be able to help you quite some time. Okay, now then, go ahead.
Daniel Jackson:
Right. Actually, I was able to talk with him and he actually provided quite a few interesting stories. Some of them are pretty funny too.
Robert Burris:
Yeah, he’s a pretty funny guy.
Daniel Jackson:
My next question was about Lieutenant Colonel McMillan—if you remember about him. Apparently from everything that I’ve read, he was a pretty popular guy. And I was wondering what kind of man was he that—
Robert Burris:
Colonel McMillan was a commander. He was a commander of everybody. His attitude was, “Don’t talk about it, hell, let’s get it done.” That was his attitude. He was a good man. As long as you were straight with him, he would protect you ’til hell froze over. He was a good commander. I have the greatest respect for him, and it hurt me very deeply when I heard him go down in 1944.
And I can’t tell you exactly the date, but I remember specifically, and he was a good man. He was a good commander. He was respected by the enlisted people. He was respected by the officers. But all you had to do is be straight with him and he was okay. Just don’t give him no funny stories. He didn’t buy those. You could rob a bank and if you told him you did it, he’d probably try to get you out of it. But if you tried to lie to him, he didn’t like that too good. I had the greatest respect for him. That answer your question?
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah, that does. Thank you. I was going to ask you next what you remember about the Chinese people from when you were over there?
Robert Burris:
The Chinese people I found I had a great deal of respect for them. I found them to be very conscientious about what they were doing. I found that they cared a great deal for the Americans. Chinese that I knew cared a great deal for the Americans and respected us. And I’m not sure what there is there now.
Daniel Jackson:
I was actually there just over spring break. It’s an interesting place to go.
Robert Burris:
Well, it would be. I would like to go back there, but I’m sure it wouldn’t be the same. Now having come into China the way I did from the back door.
Daniel Jackson:
Right.
Robert Burris:
Going all the way to Suichuan, which is, oh, I say no more than a hundred miles from the coast. As I remembered, it’s almost due north of Canton. And then we turn and come all the way back. And we never came out of China or went into China from that side. So all we know is the back door of China.
Daniel Jackson:
And it’s very different now. It’s much more developed than when you were there.
Robert Burris:
Say what?
Daniel Jackson:
It’s much more developed than you were there too now. It’s very different.
Robert Burris:
Yeah.
Daniel Jackson:
And as—
Robert Burris:
But I would like to go back. I won’t ever make it. I can’t go anywhere. I’m not in good shape.
Daniel Jackson:
That’s too bad.
Robert Burris:
I’m not running very fast anymore.
Daniel Jackson:
I’ll tell you what though, when I send you a draft of this project, I’ll send you the pictures from when I was over there.
Robert Burris:
If you could, I would appreciate it. And I’m sorry I can’t give you anything right off the top of my head now. I’ve been whacking my brain too since you called me to see what I could come up with. And I talked to Jim [Hyde]. I haven’t talked to Dick Maddox. I need to call Dick. I’m ashamed of myself for not having called him, but Jim and I talked, and I asked him what all that you had dealt with, and he told me. And it’s pretty well what we dealt with because Jim and I was right together all the time.
Daniel Jackson:
Right, right.
Robert Burris:
In fact, I think we flew over the Hump together the first time. In fact, I know we did in an old C-46, and Jim is a very good friend of mine. I’ve stayed up with him all through the years. And anything that I can think of, now I’ve got your phone number and your address and everything. And if I come up with something concrete, as I told you, I wouldn’t want to give you a bunch of malarkey.
Daniel Jackson:
Right, right.
Robert Burris:
Anything that I’d have, I’d like to be able to substantiate it and I will. If there’s anything I can think of that I haven’t given you, I certainly will. And if you have anything like you spoke of that you’d like to send me, it might help me a whole lot.
Daniel Jackson:
Actually, I’ll tell you what, I actually have a rough draft finished of the project. It’s about eighty-two pages long, and I can send that to you. It should help jog your memory and everything and maybe you can remember some stories and fill some holes in. That’d be great.
Robert Burris:
Okay. Now have got a pen handy or something? Let me tell you something that’s going to transpire: on the 15th day of August, which is not long from now, I’m moving to another retirement home. And let me give you that address and everything.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay.
Robert Burris:
They tell me that I will have the same phone number, but I’ll give you my address in case something does happen. But it’s 42433 Thousand Oaks.
Daniel Jackson:
Thousand Oaks, okay.
Robert Burris:
Yeah, Thousand Oaks like oak trees.
Daniel Jackson:
Right.
Robert Burris:
I gave you the address. 4243. The apartment there I’ll be in is 205.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay.
Robert Burris:
And that is in San Antonio. It’s only about three or four miles from where I am now. And the zip code there is 78217. My zip code now is 218. It’s in the same, it’s just a little ways from here.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay.
Robert Burris:
I’m going to have my furniture moved on the 17th, but I’m going to vacate this place. I’m going to start vacating it on the 15th, but I will be into that place by the end of the month with no problem and—
Daniel Jackson:
Well, I’ll tell you what, I will send you a draft of this paper this Monday. So it should be at the house that you’re at now before you have to move.
Robert Burris:
You better send it to my present address.
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah, that’s what I’ll do.
Robert Burris:
Yeah. Send it to my present address because I’ll leave a forwarding address, and I’ll get it because if they get it before I move in there, they don’t know where to put it. So it’s best you just send it to here.
Daniel Jackson:
Will do.
Robert Burris:
Okay. And you’re back in school now, right?
Daniel Jackson:
No, actually I only get three weeks off during the summertime and the other six weeks are spent with a summer job of sorts. So right now I’m actually teaching glider flying to other cadets. I’m a glider instructor.
Robert Burris:
You involved in gliders?
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah. I instruct other people how to fly.
Robert Burris:
You got more guts than me.
Daniel Jackson:
It’s actually a lot of fun.
Robert Burris:
I like to be able to pull up them wheels and go around again if I have to.
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah, I have my private pilot’s license, too.
Robert Burris:
I have a lot of respect for glider pilots. I’ve known a few of them. But, yeah, if you send me that, it might help me to come up with something. I know I haven’t been very much help to you.
Daniel Jackson:
No, no. You’ve been a help.
Robert Burris:
I respect what you’re doing and I do consider it “The Forgotten Squadron” because we were kind of an illegitimate child over there. I’m not saying that we got persecuted in any way, we just kind of didn’t get recognized.
Daniel Jackson:
Right, right.
Robert Burris:
And I think we did a hell of a good job. There’s so much that went on, like: you can’t imagine how much bombing and strafing missions we did. It’s not on anybody’s books.
Daniel Jackson:
I agree with you.
Robert Burris:
I’ve loaded enough bombs on them old P-38s, we’ve flown all kinds of mission. We didn’t do much escort missions until late in the war because there wasn’t that many bomb squadrons over there.
Daniel Jackson:
Right, right.
Robert Burris:
They just started coming over there in, I’d say, ’44 and along there. And we’d been there a long time. All there was in the beginning was fighter planes in China. And we had no ground personnel. The ground personnel that we had was Chinese soldiers. So it was a different war than the rest of them. So what Dick said to you, I wholeheartedly agree with.
Daniel Jackson:
Well, I appreciate all you guys giving me this information. It’s helped out a lot. And I’m kind of excited: eighty-two pages is more than I thought I would get out of it, but you guys have really helped me out.
Robert Burris:
Mm-hmm. Well, I think we’re all cooperative. There’s not many of us left, but we still stay in touch with each other, and we have a lot of respect for each other. That says a lot right there.
Daniel Jackson:
It does. It does.
Robert Burris:
Yeah. We have a great deal of respect for each other. I don’t think there’s anything I could call on Jim Hyde to do he wouldn’t do, or Dick Maddox. Dick’s going through some rough days right now. In fact, as I told you, I’m almost scared to call him for his wife isn’t with us anymore.
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah, yeah. He was telling me about that.
Robert Burris:
I know her well also, but I am going to call him tonight. I promise I’ve been going to call him, and I’m almost afraid to.
Daniel Jackson:
Well, I hope everything—
Robert Burris:
I do appreciate your call very much.
Daniel Jackson:
Well, I appreciate you talking to me, sir. I really do.
Robert Burris:
And I thank you.
Daniel Jackson:
Oh, thank you, sir. And I’ll send you off a copy of this—
Robert Burris:
Stay in touch with me.
Daniel Jackson:
Say what?
Robert Burris:
I say, “Stay in touch.”
Daniel Jackson:
I will. I’ll send you a copy of this on Monday. You can look it over and provide comments.
Robert Burris:
It’d be great.
Daniel Jackson:
Add stories, it’ll be great.
Robert Burris:
I’ll have time to do it now.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay.
Robert Burris:
Because I’m out of the hospital. I’ve been in there five times in the last month or so.
Daniel Jackson:
Oh, that’s too bad.
Robert Burris:
I’m home now and I’m feeling halfway decent.
Daniel Jackson:
Good, good. Glad to hear.
Robert Burris:
I’ll see you then.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay. Thank you very much.
Robert Burris:
Take care.
Daniel Jackson:
You have a good day, sir. Bye.