Interview by Daniel Jackson, January 1, 2008
Daniel Jackson:
Hello, sir. This is Dan Jackson from the Air Force Academy.
Ernest Koury:
Hey, Dan.
Daniel Jackson:
How are you doing?
Ernest Koury:
How are you doing?
Daniel Jackson:
I’m doing okay. How about yourself?
Ernest Koury:
Can’t complain. What part of the country are you from?
Daniel Jackson:
I’m actually from Colorado Springs.
Ernest Koury:
You’re from where? South Carolina?
Daniel Jackson:
I’m from Colorado Springs.
Ernest Koury:
Oh, Colorado Springs. Oh, yeah. Let me cut off this TV here, just a minute.
Okay. What can I do for you?
Daniel Jackson:
Well, sir, if you wouldn’t mind answering some questions about your time in China, that’d be outstanding.
Ernest Koury:
Go ahead.
Daniel Jackson:
When did you arrive in China?
Ernest Koury:
I arrived in China, I think, about ’43. 1943. That’s when Chennault was breaking up his volunteer group [sic] and they brought it into the US Air Force.
Daniel Jackson:
And you were with the 22nd Bomb Squadron, is that right?
Ernest Koury:
That’s right, 22nd Bomb Squadron.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay. How long were you in China?
Ernest Koury:
I was in China two years.
Daniel Jackson:
Oh, wow. Where were you stationed during that time?
Ernest Koury:
South of Kunming [sic]. A little village called Yangkai.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay. And so, you flew B-25s. Did you fly all the different versions of them, the C-models, and the J-models, and the Hs and everything?
Ernest Koury:
Well, let me tell you the story. Back in 1939, President Roosevelt at that time started flying schools in different universities. So I signed up at Elon University to fly. And there was thirteen of us. We took ground courses that was taught by one of the professors, then we started flying the little old Cubs. Are you familiar with these small planes?
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah, yeah.
Ernest Koury:
And so I got in about two hundred hours, larger planes. Most of our flying was done by dead reckoning. Radio [navigation] at that time it was not too popular. And so, Pearl Harbor was December the 7th. January the 10th, I went in and applied to the military. And they told me, “Forget what you’ve learned. You’re going to have to go to ground school, then you start learning to fly.” Well, I didn’t like that decision.
So, when I signed up to go in the Army, then they put me in the Air Force, I was shipped to Keesler Field, which was a radio school. That was in Mississippi. That was in 19—I think that was 1941—42. And I spent a couple of years in Mississippi. Then, we left Mississippi to go to China. Instead of flying to China, we got on a troop ship, Norfolk, Virginia. We got on that May the 23rd and didn’t get off of that boat until July the 5th. We landed in Bombay, India. Then we took a troop train from Bombay to Calcutta. We spent six months in Calcutta. At that time, they was waiting to see if the Japs were going to invade India. Well, they were stopped in Burma.
So, they flew us over the Hump to this little—well, we flew into Kunming. Kunming, we took a truck, went to Yangkai, which is about an hour’s drive south [sic] of Kunming. In the meantime, they gave me a job as a first sergeant. And at that time, they were having pilots were getting sick with diarrhea. The conditions were terrible. And I flew with Major Bruce Berman. He was a lieutenant colonel, used to play football for the Chicago Bears. And I got six missions with he, and we did sea sweeps and was trying to interrupt the Japanese transportation lanes.
In ’45, peace came, and I had enough points that I flew back to the States. And I got out in about August of ’45. And anything else you want to ask?
Daniel Jackson:
Yes. What kind of missions was your squadron employed on in China? Were you guys used against personnel, against trains, trucks?
Ernest Koury:
What personnel? What was the question?
Daniel Jackson:
What kind of missions was your squadron used on? What kind of missions did your squadron do?
Ernest Koury:
We did sea sweeps. They blew up bridges for the Japanese on the railroads. We were trying to interrupt and to stop the—with the help of the Chinese army, which at that time wasn’t much.
Daniel Jackson:
And on any of these missions, did you encounter enemy fighters or ground fire?
Ernest Koury:
Oh, we had enemy fighters. We had cover—P-51s. These were part of the AVGs, American Volunteer Groups [sic]. They were all volunteers at that time. They were under direction of Chennault. He was a hell of a general, and everybody loved him. And then, the military came in and created the Fourteenth Air Force, which we belonged to.
Daniel Jackson:
Right. And as far as ground fire was concerned, was flack heavy, especially on sea sweeps?
Ernest Koury:
Oh, yeah. We received flack. Some of the villages, some of the towns that we bombed, the rivers we bombed, we did run into anti-aircraft. And they had Zeros, and those were harassing us some, too.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay. And then, as far as, you were based at Yangkai near Kunming. How were the facilities there?
Ernest Koury:
They were terrible. We ate off of the land. Whatever crops was grown on the land, that was our meals. And because they had to fly gasoline and ammunition over the Hump, so they couldn’t afford to send us food. And, of course, I can tell you a little story: Most of the guys used to go down to this village, was operated by the British refugees, but they had very good steaks and chickens. And the story was, one day we were hunting, the sergeant and myself, deer hunting. Up in the mountains, we saw these two Chinese dressing an animal. Well, it turned out that these animals were dogs they were skinning and they were being sold to the restaurant, and they were cooking them, and we were eating them.
Daniel Jackson:
Oh, no.
Ernest Koury:
They were dogs. What happened, they’d bring the pups, turn them loose on the base, and everybody would grab a pup for a pet. And our meat at that time was these water buffaloes that were too old to plow. And we’d take that meat and feed them to the dogs, to the pets. Then the pets would disappear. That was quite an experience. We turned that into the military police. They put it off limits. And we went back and started eating a lot of buffaloes.
Daniel Jackson:
So, the food wasn’t very good then.
Ernest Koury:
It wasn’t good. We ate off of the land. They grew turnips, but everything had to be cooked. No fresh vegetables whatsoever.
Daniel Jackson:
Right. I would imagine that you’d probably get pretty sick if you—
Ernest Koury:
Quite a few of them. They did get diarrhea. Malaria was another thing. A lot of them got malaria. Living in China at that time wasn’t too good.
Daniel Jackson:
Were you ever on any missions down into Burma?
Ernest Koury:
Yes, we did. We had missions, but we lost some planes in Burma. One of the missions we went, we had quite a few holes shot through the plane. One of the motors was shot. But we finally made it back to the base.
Daniel Jackson:
So, the missions into Burma, what kind of targets were you guys going after?
Ernest Koury:
We were interdicting the railroads. They were bringing fuel, oil from Burma, getting them on up to the northern part of China. And then, probably the Burma Road was completed, and they took part of the Burma Road. We had part of the Burma Road. But the Chinese army wasn’t too effective at that time.
Daniel Jackson:
Right. Okay. And so, did you guys also fly any close support missions of the Chinese troops down there?
Ernest Koury:
That was our main object.
Daniel Jackson:
Do you know how that was coordinated? Did they have radio operators on the ground or something?
Ernest Koury:
We did, but it was very primitive there. That was our only ways of communication was through Chennault, he had established this while he was part of the AVG. And it was done with a Pony Express type of communication.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay. Now, you said that you had gone to radio school. Were you also employed as a gunner and a radio operator, or what exactly was your function on the B-25?
Ernest Koury:
No. I was a first sergeant. I got in as a first sergeant with all of my training. They gave me the position of first sergeant. I didn’t care to be an officer. And most of it was dealing with cooks and KPs. At that time, I was about twenty-one years old.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay. And how many aircraft did you guys lose while you were down there?
Ernest Koury:
That I’d have to guess. Pilots, as soon as they got fifty missions, they were allowed to go back to the States. And I remember one mission, this young pilot, he was from California, the last mission he was on, he got shot. And I’ve thought about this guy many times. And so, we might have lost—I’m going to guess thirty or forty planes.
Daniel Jackson:
And was that mostly because of ground fire, or weather, or enemy airplanes, or?
Ernest Koury:
Both. Both. I tell you. And I got some of these books. Did Megan, did she fax you this book that we’ve got, squadron book?
Daniel Jackson:
She didn’t fax me anything yet. I have from David Hayward a couple books on the history of your squadron. One’s called “World War Two Diary.” And then I’ve also been able to interview Chapman Hail, who was a pilot on the B-25s down there too.
Ernest Koury:
Uh-huh. It’s been a long time. It’s been sixty-some years. A lot of the guys I’ve forgot about. I used to make these conventions, and we’d get reacquainted. Of course, we enjoyed them but I haven’t been to these conventions, I’m going to guess, in about about thirty, forty years. And I got a big business here that I’ve started. We’re in the hosiery business. We also involved in motels here in Burlington. And we just didn’t have the time to go and socialize.
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah. Well, I heard that they just had their last get-together this last spring too. They aren’t going to be having any more.
Ernest Koury:
Yeah, this is the last one, I think, for the squadron. I think they’re going to cease those, but the Fourteenth Air Force will continue to have their reunions.
Daniel Jackson:
So, when you got back into the United States, did you take a discharge then on the points system?
Ernest Koury:
Yes, on the points system. I think I had fifty points, and, in fact, I wanted to get out so bad, I didn’t even keep up my government insurance, which I regret.
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah. And so then, from there, you went into business?
Ernest Koury:
Went into business. We’re in the hosiery business. This town has been known as the hosiery center of the South. And our family started this business in my mother’s basement.
Daniel Jackson:
Wow. And, I guess, from there, it grew pretty well.
Ernest Koury:
Yeah. We’ve done really well. My brother, who was in the Navy at that time, he came in, we joined forces, and now, I think we’re employing about three or four hundred people. But it’s getting tough. Textiles is really getting tough.
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah, I guess in the modern age with China and everything.
Ernest Koury:
Definitely. You’re right. We have a Best Western motel here in town and the Ramada Inn. So, if you’re ever in this area, you got free lodging.
Daniel Jackson:
Thanks, I appreciate that. Well, would you say that your experience in World War Two helped you in your business once you got out?
Ernest Koury:
Yeah. Military training at that time was very good, and chain of command was good. And, of course, my father was in the retail business, so men’s and ladies’ wear. And I knew I didn’t want to get into that business. At that time, things were sold on credit, and now—it was tough then.
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah. Well, one last question about your time in China. Did you guys ever go on any missions down into Thailand?
Ernest Koury:
No. We were mostly Burma and sea sweeps, and, I hate to say this, one of the sea sweeps, we sunk a Japanese ship that had American, British, Australian prisoners of war on. Most of them didn’t get out.
Daniel Jackson:
I think I heard about that. Of course, the Japanese didn’t mark the ships or anything, so it was impossible to tell.
Ernest Koury:
That’s right. And so, we bombed one, and sunk it, and we don’t know how many survived. We just could never find out the survival.
Daniel Jackson:
Now, these sea sweeps, would they be during the day or at night?
Ernest Koury:
They was during the day.
Daniel Jackson:
And how many airplanes would usually be on a sea sweep?
Ernest Koury:
Well, at that time there was six of us. The 341st Bomb Group, I think had twenty-five or thirty B-25s. Each squadron had nine, I think.
Daniel Jackson:
What altitude would you guys usually fly at for those?
Ernest Koury:
Well, we used to fly—well, any transportation the Japs would use, we would always bomb them. We would bomb villages that they were in. And, tell you the truth, my memory is fading. I’ll be eighty-nine years old this month, and you know, when you don’t think too much about your past, it fades. If it would help you, I’ve got these magazines, they’re leaflets, newsletters that the 22nd Bomb Squadron—I think they would mail them out about every other month. I’ve still got those. I’d be happy to mail them to you. You can get that mailed if you like, and then you can mail them back to me.
Daniel Jackson:
Yeah, that would work fine, actually. I can just make copies of the ones that are useful, and then mail everything back. That would great.
Ernest Koury:
All right. I think Megan’s got your address, doesn’t she? Yeah.
Daniel Jackson:
Right. She’s got my e-mail address, then my address should be in the letter that I sent you originally.
Ernest Koury:
Post Office 4609?
Daniel Jackson:
That’s right.
Ernest Koury:
USAF Academy, 80841.
Daniel Jackson:
Right.
Ernest Koury:
Did I get it right, then?
Daniel Jackson:
That’s right.
Ernest Koury:
Okay. I tell you what, I’ll probably get you some out this week.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay. I appreciate it a lot.
Ernest Koury:
And you take what you want. I mean, you copy what you want, and you can send them back. I would like to keep these for my grandkids.
Daniel Jackson:
Oh yeah, no problem. Yeah, I’ll send them right back.
Ernest Koury:
All right. So, if there’s anything else you’d like to know, I’d be glad to help you as long as my memory’s here with me.
Daniel Jackson:
Well, I appreciate you allowing me to interview you over the phone and everything. I appreciate you sending me the newsletters. It’s a big help. Thank you.
Ernest Koury:
All right then. If you’re ever in the area, stop by and see us.
Daniel Jackson:
Okay, will do. Thanks much.
Ernest Koury:
Okay. Nice talking to you.
Daniel Jackson:
Nice talking to you too, thanks.
Ernest Koury:
Bye.
Daniel Jackson:
Bye.