Interview by Daniel Jackson, March 2009
Male voice: [background noise]
We’ll introduce from this side. Today we invited some teachers, experts and scholars to participate in this interview. Thanks for your coming.
Female voice:
Please first let me welcome our American guests who came a long way to the place to visit and conduct this interview. Let me introduce you the [Chinese] specialist and scholars. We’ll follow this order, starting from this side.
This is our former chairman of the Association of Literature and Arts [文联, i.e. the abbreviation of 中国文学艺术界联合会] of Tengchong County. His family name is Liu and he is called Liu Zhenglong (刘正龙). He wrote many books about Tengchong. One of the books is about our former Magister Zhang Wende [张问德] [known among the local of Tengchong County] as the anti-Japanese hero who sacrificed his life to save his people during the war. The book was made into a movie and several days ago it was shown on the movie channel on Chinese Central Television Station [i.e. CCTV]. He is Chairman Liu.
This is Caiwen [i.e. 彩文, according to the name list his family name is 卢] Laoshi, who is also the director of Huangpu tongxuehui [黄埔同学会, full name is 黄埔军校同学会, i.e. Association of Huangpu Academy Graduates]. He is also the veteran of WWII who participated in the war.
This is also a well known peasant writer [农民作家] Duan Peidong [段培东] Laoshi
who wrote anti-Japanese War trilogy [抗战三部曲]. This morning you saw a book named Jiansao fengyan [i.e.《剑扫风烟》] in the National Heroes’ Memorial Cemetery [国殇墓园]. It’s his product, written by Duan Laoshi.
That is our former Director of the Management Office of the National Heroes’ Memorial Cemetery [i.e. 国殇墓园管理所] Bi Laoshi, [or] Bi Shixian [毕世铣] Laoshi.
Over there is our local Tengchong weapon collector Duan Shengkui [段生馗] Laoshi, who specializes in collecting WWII weapons. His collection is also well known in the US. Many people who are interested in WWII know our Duan Laoshi, [they either] know him or have heard his name.
Male voice:
This morning we went to visited Heshunxiang [和顺乡], the Chinese, Burmese and Indian Anti-Japanese War Museum [滇缅抗战博物馆] in Heshunxiang and saw the weapon display. Those weapons were primarily collected by Duan Laoshi from this area.
Female voice:
Over there is Ma Laoshi, Ma Shouchang [马守昌] Laoshi. He was the Director of Cultural Relics Maintenance Office [文管所, the full name is 文物管理所]. He also is interested in WWII. He helped our Propaganda Department [宣传部] publish many books about WWII. The books, e.g. the book [entitled] War in Eastern Nomandy [《东方诺曼底之战》], which I recommended to you this morning was one of the books published by both Ma Laoshi and Bi Laoshi.
The above is my introduction. See what you want to ask and feel free to ask them.
Male voice:
Ok. Just then you [i.e. the visitors] all have introduced yourself to them. They were also introduced to you regarding their positions, their expertise, their research and publications about this period of history. Now, if you have any questions please feel free to ask each other. It’s ok that you ask them questions.
Part B: Question section:
Daniel:
Sorry for my really poor Chinese. But, I prepared several questions, anyway.
Q1/ Daniel:
Where were you during WWII? Where?
A1/ Caiwen Laoshi [of Huangpu]:
During WWII, as for me, since I’m from Tengchong, so, after I graduated from [Huangpu Academy], I went to Dali, Yunnan. At that time, the Headquarter of 11 Bloc [of Nationalist Army] was in Dali. After my graduation I was assigned to work in No.2 Section of Staff Division [十一集团军总司令部参谋处第二科] as the second lieutenant staff officer [少尉参谋]. Then, the Headquarter was moved to Tengchong. At the time Tengchong was occupied by Japanese. So, we, a small group, namely the No.1 group of Tengchong, were sent to Tengchong to collect the information [of the enemy] in the occupied area. We had to collect, investigate everything possible related to Japanese. We carried the electronic radio with us. So, we could report to our Headquarter. We had to report all the information we collected to the Headquarter. I lived nearby Tengchong. I was an intelligence officer.
Male voice:
Do you understand what he said?
Daniel:
Ya, I understood.
Male voice: [recaptured Caiwen’s answer above]
He is a veteran of Nationalist Army, who participated in the anti-Japanese War. [repeat] He is a veteran. At the time he lived in Dali. The Headquarter of 11 Bloc was in Dali. He collected the military information. He was an intelligence officer. He was working there.
Q2/ Daniel:
Was it important for you that Flying Tiger came to help? Was it important that Flying Tiger came to help Chinese in Tengchong?
A2/ Caiwen:
Based on what I knew, at the time our weapons were very poor in our country. If we wanted to beat the Japanese, the occupiers, based on our military power at the time, the gap between our weapons and theirs was really big. At that time, our air force could not compete with the other side, our weapons could not compete with the other side, either. Of course, we had a lot of people in our troop. But, we could not compete with their weapons. In a battle field it was, of course, a great advantage if you had many people. But, it was not enough if you wanted to win the battle and you only depended on manpower. It was very important to have good weapons. At the time, our country was very poor and backward. So, to gain the American support, at the time US was our ally, we felt we should be very grateful to have our ally’s support, their support to China. If there was no American support, we may not be trying very hard [on our side] to completely destroy our enemy. At the time, for example, Flying Tiger brought so many airplanes and also the new weapons. We specifically went to study how to use the new weapons, to learn about the new weapons, for example, the huoyanpao [火焰炮, i.e. some kind of cannon used at the time]. The mountain on our left side, the Laifeng mountain, on which the enemy built a very strong post. So, we used the flamethrower [火焰喷射器]. The other side didn’t have such kind of weapon. It was from America, the help from US. So, we had more powerful weapon. As for the air force, of course, it was not a problem. We had many American airplanes. At the time [prior to the Flying Tiger], Japanese had the full advantage in the space. They were extremely arrogant. They occupied the entire sky. The sky was entirely their territory. After Flying Tiger came, the sky was our territory. So, we beat up the occupiers. We could not win the war without American support. Up to now, we should be grateful for American support. I would say that it was extremely lucky to have US as our ally. [Up to now] whenever we talk about the war, we always mention American help. We can never forget their help.
Q3/Daniel:
Do you know any case that Flying Tiger accidently killed some Chinese soldiers?
Female voice: [reworded Dan’s question]
Do you know Flying Tiger accidently killed some Chinese soldiers?
A3/ Caiwen:
Ya, there were such cases, at the time, based on what I knew because I was the intelligence officer so I knew more things [than other people]. For example, I heard a case at the time that one commander was conducting to bomb a town, our bombing post was set up right near the town of Gaoshansi [高山寺, High Mountain Temple]. US was helping us to conduct [the bombing], as the advisor. Japanese planes were coming and we tried our best to contact our troop to attack the planes. But, our soldiers couldn’t contact our troop. We asked American staff officer of communication [联络参谋] for help. That day we failed [??? unclear] Later, the commander missed a few kilometers in his calculation. The bomb dropped where our troop was and killed some people. It was natural to have such kind of accidents [in the war] and unnecessary to be fussy over it. This is the case I heard at the time.
Q4/Daniel:
Did you climb the city wall of Tengchong?
Female voice: [repeated Dan’s question in a different way]
Did you or not climb the city wall of Tengchong?
A4/ Caiwen:
I did. I climbed many times because I lived very close to the wall.
Another male voice:
[you mean] when there were no battles going on [when you climbed the wall].
A4/ Caiwen: [continuing]
Ya, when there were no battles. But, even there were battles I also climbed there because I was an intelligence officer. However, I never participated in the frontline during any battle [since I was an intelligence officer]. Tengchong’s city wall was made of stones and was very strong. It’s about more than 3 zhang [i.e. 长, the traditional Chinese measurement] high.
A male voice:
It’s 4 zhang high.
A4/ Caiwen: [continuing]
Oh, it’s about between more than 3 to 4 zhang high, i.e. about 13 meters. [Other figures are given in the background noises]. The thickness of the wall is about one zhang eight [寸, the Chinese traditional measurement], i.e. about 6 meters. Perhaps there are not so many such strong city walls like Tengchong’s stone wall. It is really strong. [At the time] the enemy built many forts [i.e. 碉堡 in Chinese] around the city wall. Also, they opened a lot of embrasures [i.e. 枪眼 in Chinese] right inside the wall and built many barriers behind the wall, which made it very hard for us to attack them but very easy for them to defend themselves. As one Chinese old saying goes: when one person guards the barrier even hundreds [soldiers] cannot break through [i.e. 一夫当关 万夫莫开]. [In other words,] it only took one Japanese soldier to guard the barrier [behind the wall] but it took a lot of our soldiers to attack the city. There were so many Chinese soldiers died when we tried to attack the city. So, US helped us, including Flying Tiger and the ground troops.
[Caiwen asks: Did they go to visit guoshangyuan] [i.e.国殇园, the abbreviation of 国殇墓园the cemetery mentioned in the introduction]
[A female voice: Ya, they went]
A4/ Caiwen: [continuing]
Over guoshangyuan [国殇园the cemetery mentioned in the introduction] about more than 20 [American] soldiers died there. So many people died there. Even now we, Chinese including the local Tengchong people will go there to visit [whenever they are there]. They died for our cost and they died honorably. We really respect them and we’ll never forget them.
Daniel:
Then, I don’t have any more questions. Thanks!
[more background noises]
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Track 2:
Male voice 1:
Americans liked us, the children, very much [it sounds like he was one of the children at the time]. They would give us, the kids, the airplanes made out of wrapping paper of gum. Then, they showed us the kids how to make the planes and how to fly the paper planes. [laughing] This is the first thing [I would like to point out].
Secondly, US had a regiment of staff officer [i.e. 参谋团] on the ground here during the Anti-Japanese War. Their tasks included, first of all, training the Chinese soldiers; secondly, supplying us with weapons and medicines; thirdly, during the battle Americans didn’t have the responsibility to conduct the battle but they knew exactly what their role in the battle was. This is about the help of American ground troops. As for American Air Force, it was Flying Tiger. Our Tengchong city was a beautiful old city. At the time when we attacked the city, many including their government and the American soldiers themselves, believed that it would be too regretful if they bombed the city. So, at the beginning when we attacked the city we didn’t use any bombs. [Instead] we used the bamboo ladders trying to climb up to the city wall. In addition, we also used smokes [to help hide our soldiers] while they tried to climb the ladders. However, we could not succeed in entering the city after a while. Therefore, the final decision was made to bomb the city from the air. That meant we would depend upon our Flying Tigers to bomb the city. When our Flying Tiger came to bomb, it was hard at the beginning. Then, our American soldiers worked out a plan. They attached two steel poles on each bomb because the city wall was a solid stone wall. Every time when the bomb landed on the wall it was bounced away and exploded somewhere else. Afterwards, they [i.e. American pilots] flew along the city wall and dropped the bomb after finding the target. The bomb would land right on the two steel poles hitting the exact target on the wall and exploding the wall. Totally they opened eleven big holes in the city wall, which enabled Chinese Expedition Army [i.e. 中国远征军] to enter the city. This is [one of the examples] that the supports we had from Flying Tiger.
It’s around the year before last year, i.e. about the year of 2005, an old veteran of Flying Tiger named Delifuke Long [??, check the name, probably his Chinese name is the transcription of his English name], who was 84 years old, came to Tengchong. When he was in China he was only in his 20’s when he came to bomb Tengchong. That day when we were inside Muyuan [国殇园the memorial cemetery mentioned in the introduction section above] I showed him a picture of the south part of the city wall with a big hole, when he saw the picture he told me that he was the one who bombed the south part of the city wall. So, later I gave the picture to him. He was very happy. He said it was him. According to him, he conducted 164 flying missions [during this attack]. So, the reason why Chinese Expedition Army could enter the city and won the battle in such a short time, it was because of the guidance and help of the regiment of staff officers of American army on the ground as well as the bombing of Flying Tiger.
Thirdly, twice air bombings occurred in Tengchong. The first time happened on Sept. 3rd in 1944. Total 10 Japanese bombers came to Tengchong that day. Their primary mission was to drop the ammunitions, medicines and food to the Japanese soldiers who were surrounded by our Expedition Army. That day we didn’t have the information of the arrival of Japanese planes. They started shooting and bombing our Expedition Army as soon as they arrived. Their carrier followed to drop the supplies inside the city [where the Japanese were surrounded]. Then, our Flying Tiger learned from Yinnanyi [??, check the place name] airport that the Japanese planes arrived to Tengchong. So, they immediately took off from Yinnanyi [??] airport and came to Tengchong. On Sept 3rd, [Flying Tiger] destroyed two Japanese planes. There were some pictures taken [that day]. [For example,] a picture inside Muyuan [i.e. 国殇园the memorial cemetery mentioned in the introduction] showed two soldiers of [Chinese] Expedition Army were watching [Flying Tiger’s attacking Japanese planes]. There are pictures kept in Muyin. That day two Japanese planes were destroyed.
Another bombing occurred above the Tengchong city on Sept. 10th in 1944. This was because on Sept.9th our 126 regiment caught a Japanese interpreter inside a bomb shelter [i.e. 防空洞] under the Caishen Temple [i.e. 财神庙] on the Zhongmei street inside the city. The interpreter was a Taiwanese whose name was Bai Binghuang. He told us a very important information that the next day 13 Japanese planes would come to bomb Tengchong, the city. The reason, we assumed, why he told us the information was firstly, that probably he still had some love for his country because he was from Taiwan and therefore he was Chinese. Secondly, he probably wanted to redeem his guilt [of helping Japanese] by helping us. That very night the information was forwarded to Kunming because the headquarter of our Flying Tiger, namely the headquarter of the 14 aviation team [i.e. 14航空队总部] was stationed there. Around 9:00 in the morning next day [i.e. Sept.10th] total eight Flying Tigers’ planes came. Four of them were D-51 [??, check the type of plane because it also sounds like B-51] and P-51, the other four were P-38, namely known as Black Widow [i.e. 黑寡妇]. The local people of Tengchong called it [namely P-38] Twins because they had two bodies with three heads on. [However,] its formal name was Black Widow. [P-38] always came to protect [i.e. 保驾]. After they arrived they flew around for a while but didn’t find any enemies. So, they left for Gaoshansi mountain in the northeast part of the city. The local people said they went to hide above the clouds. Soon after, 13 Japanese planes came from the south part of the city. They came from Mashi [??, check the name], crossing over the top of Tianyinsi mountain in the south. [Among the 13 Japanese planes,] 3 were bombers, 2 were carriers and 8 were fighters. As soon as they arrived, the carriers started dropping stuff among the Japanese soldiers. The bombers and the fighters started bombing and shooting the battlefields [i.e.阵地] of 130 Division [i.e. 130 师] and 198 Division of 54 Army [i.e. 54军] outside the east gate of the city. So, our local people said Flying Tigers already were ready. They came out of the clouds and started fighting back. That day six Japanese planes were hit by Flying Tigers and killed 24 Japanese. 3 Japanese were caught alive [i.e. 生俘]. Among the three, I saw 2 of them with my own eyes. Unlike the Japanese who would brutally kill the Chinese soldiers they caught, the Chinese army strictly followed the UN international rules treating the Japanese captures nicely.
Male voice 2: [clarify the UN internal rules]
Jeneva Conventions [i.e. 日内瓦国际公法].
Male voice 2: [continuing]
Ya, it’s Jeneva Conventions. Our Expedition Army didn’t tie the two Japanese P.O.W.s up with ropes after they captured them. Nor did they beat them. However, they took off their shoes and hanged them over their shoulders. Then, they took the Japanese to the Headquarter of the Expedition Army from where their planes landed. The road was full of sands and stones [i.e. 沙石路]. After the shoes were removed, their tender feet, the white and fatty feet, could not stand the sandy road. So, it seemed that they walked really slowly. Under this situation, our soldiers didn’t beat them. They only slap the fat ass [of one of them] with the gunstock [i.e. 枪托]. The Japanese could not speak too much Chinese. So, he turned his head smiling at the Chinese solider and said: “slowly, slowly.” That was the only two sentences that he could say. This was one case, the two P.O.W.s [I saw]. There was another plane that was hit and landed on the bed of a small river near Minglang village in the southwest of the city. It was a fighter. One of the two pilots was injured [badly]. The other one was still alive. That day when the plane landed right into the river, a peasant from Sichuan who came to live in our Minglang village was working on the field. As soon as he saw the plane landed, he immediately ran to the destroyed plane and opened the door. First, he took away his handgun hanging on his waist and then other stuff including his watch, his fountain pen, etc. Then, he dragged him out of the plane and took him to his own home. He kept the Japanese at his home feeding him. He asked the Japanese to work for him on his field. He worked for the peasant for about half a month. Later, our 198 Division of Expedition Army moved from Tengchong to Jiubaozhai. Passing by the village, they found the captured Japanese in the peasant’s home. So, the 198 Division sent the Japanese to the P.O.W. camp in Tengchong. Late, he was sent to Chongqing [i.e.重庆]. Eventually, he was sent back to Japan.
So, the reason we could win the battle in Tengchong was because of our American ally’s support, whether the support came from the air or on the ground. We didn’t know where we would go without their support. As other mentioned before, our Tengchong people owe American people a debt of gratitude [i.e. 恩情] which we’ll never forget.
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Track 3:
Q1 / Corpman:
How did you communicate with Flying Tigers? How was their Chinese? Can you communicate with them in Chinese? Or you used hand gestures?
Male voice 1:
We could only write down things we saw. But, we could not talk with each other. They gave us candies or gums because we were small kids. They always had candies in their pocket. The local people in Tengchong only knew ‘Ok’ and the Americans only knew one Chinese word ‘dinghao’ [i.e. 顶好].
Male voice 2:
So, when we saw the Americans we said to them ‘Ok’ and they replied ‘dinghao’.
Male voice 3:
They didn’t know Chinese and the local common people didn’t know English. So, they could only communicate with each other using simple languages.
Q2/ Corpman:
At the time did you live inside or outside the city?
Male voice 1:
We lived in the rural areas outside the city. The Japanese stationed inside the city. So, the local people escaped to the countryside. I lived in a village close to the airport. So, every day I went to the airport watching American carriers and fighters take off or land. Whenever there was a battle in the air, we would watch it from an open space in the village. We saw all the air battles. We also saw how the American planes bombed the Laifeng Mountain and the Taikong town.
Male voice 2:
As for the Black Window, Japanese invaders were afraid of the Black Window because they could fly like this [it sounds like he was demonstrating with gestures] and then immediately climb up to the certain height to dash right towards [the Japanese]. That was the first thing [which scared the Japanese]. Secondly, they could fly in a spiral way like this straight forward [again, it sounds like he was demonstrating]. Japanese were really afraid of the Black Window, P-38 fighter.
Male voice 1: [resumed]
American fighters functioned better because they could climb straight up and down and then make a turn. But, Japanese fighters functioned poorly because they could not climb up as well as the Americans’. Nor the speed of Japanese fighters was as fast as that of the American fighters. At the time, they didn’t have jets 喷气式but the props 螺旋式 and the planes functioned so well. It was really good taking the fact into consideration.
Q3/ Corpman:
Did you see any planes prior to the arrival of Flying Tigers?
Male voice 1:
Ya, I saw the planes. I saw them every day.
Male voice 2: [clarifying Corpman’s question]
He meant whether it was the first time for you to see the planes when Flying Tigers came?
Male voice 1: [resumed]
We never saw a plane prior to [Flying Tigers]. Not until the anti-Japanese war did we see airplanes. Before that time, we never saw airplanes.
Male voice 3:
The local people had their own comments on the different types of plane. Take P-51 as the example, the local people gave it a nickname “longneck plane” because its head was very long.
Male voice 4:
[He meant] the head of the plane was very long. So, the common people from the local area just called it “longneck plane”.
Male voice 3: [resumed]
It went like “Longneck” had a neck that was very long [i.e.长脖子，脖子长]. That was the name for P-51. As for P-38, the local people called it “twins” [i.e. 双生子] because the plane had two body parts. So, the common people called it “twins”.
Male voice 4:
The [American] pilots sat right in the middle of the plane and there were two body parts on each side of the pilot. Therefore, the local called it “twins”. You can see this kind of plane in the pictures, the WWII pictures. Of course, there is not any more this kind of plane nowadays. They stopped producing such kind of planes.
Male voice 5: [added]
There are some in the museum in the US. Probably there are some in the museum.
[background noise of discussing among the participants.]
Male voice 6:
Lots of planes crashed [i.e. 坠落] flying over the Hump [i.e.驼峰航线], about more than one hundred. One of them crashed near here, the place next to us [namely Tengchong] called Lujiangzhou. It crashed inside the valley of Pianma of Gaoligong Mountain. After they found the remains [i.e. 残骸] of the plane they moved the remains out. The plane crashed in the deep mountain. At the time, when Flying Tigers either fought or flew over this area, the local people often saw their planes.
Male voice 5:
We also had some stories of rescuing [i.e.救援] the American pilots.
Male voice 6:
They would also like to tell you some stories about how the local people rescued the [American] pilots after the American planes were hit down by the Japanese. Sometimes the carriers crashed due to the poor weather conditions. The American planes crashed around these areas, including Tengchong, Baoshan and Lujiangzhou. There are some really touchy stories about how the local people rescued the pilots. They would like to share with you. [end of the recording]